| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4 5] > | Does offering very low rate justify bad Blue Board review? Thread poster: Tomasz Poplawski
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Today I received an indecent proposal.
You guys probably have seen many similar ones:
"The word-count for this project is approximately 185,000 words. The final delivery date is still being discussed, but most likely we would need a team of 3 – 4 translators per language. Therefore, each translator will receive an assignment of approximately 40,000 – 60,000 words.
In order to win this client, we had to bid very low. Therefore, we can only offer $.055 per word. Howeve... See more Today I received an indecent proposal.
You guys probably have seen many similar ones:
"The word-count for this project is approximately 185,000 words. The final delivery date is still being discussed, but most likely we would need a team of 3 – 4 translators per language. Therefore, each translator will receive an assignment of approximately 40,000 – 60,000 words.
In order to win this client, we had to bid very low. Therefore, we can only offer $.055 per word. However, we hope that we will be able to complete future projects at better rates."
I usually charge almost thee times as much. But it almost doesn't matter, the promise of better rates in the future, if I only work for peanuts now, that's what got be annoyed.
I assumed it was one of those fly-by-nighters, and responded that I am a bit shocked, willing to work, give them Trados discounts - but starting from my rate. There was no response.
To my utter surprise, I just checked them on Blue Board, and their rating is 4.9, with many raving reviews.
Am I overreacting, or do you think that offering slave rates reflects on their professionalism? Should I out them? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Blue Board rules | Dec 5, 2009 |
Blue Board rule number 2:
Certain conditions must be met before Blue Board entries can be made. Entries concerning willingness to work again with given outsourcers are allowed only when (1) commissioned work has been completed in full and delivered on time, and (2) there have not been complaints related to quality shortly after delivery. Entries may not be made on the basis of negotiations, test translations, or other preliminary or non-commissioned interactions.
You have not worked for them, so you cannot make an entry.
The situation you mention is not unusual. A 5.0 in the Blue Board does not necessarily mean that a certain agency offers good rates. Just that the translators working for them are happy with the conditions. This is not a matter of agency vs. sweatshop, but happy agency/sweatshop vs. unhappy agency/sweatshop.
Regards,
Narcís
| | | | Robert Forstag 
United States
Local time: 01:59
Spanish to English
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| Blue Board ratings are typically inflated / they are often part of an implicit quid pro quo | Dec 5, 2009 |
I think that what you will find is that Blue Board ratings are typically inflated. The reason this is so, I believe, is that translators post high ratings accompanied by laudatory remarks in the hopes of getting more work (sometimes such ratings and remarks are posted after the rater has done just one small job for the agency/person). If you look at most of the remarks accompanying the high ratings, and strip away the exaggeration and hype, they for the most part can be paraphrased thus: "The p... See more I think that what you will find is that Blue Board ratings are typically inflated. The reason this is so, I believe, is that translators post high ratings accompanied by laudatory remarks in the hopes of getting more work (sometimes such ratings and remarks are posted after the rater has done just one small job for the agency/person). If you look at most of the remarks accompanying the high ratings, and strip away the exaggeration and hype, they for the most part can be paraphrased thus: "The people at this agency did not treat me rudely, they paid me on time, and I hope to God they offer me work again!"
It is the inflation and silliness of such ratings that have led me to call for a reform of the Blue Board ratings system in a way that would reflect issues like the rate offered. Those postings are still in the archive, if you want to have a look at them. They are worth a read. Unfortunately, they did not elicit much of a response from proz.com staff.
Most recently, I suggested some structured means of allowing translators to record their protest against what they considered substandard rates offered on this site's job postings (e.g., a radial button on a job post saying "Like" or "Dislike", with the responses becoming part of that company's Blue Board record). This idea, discussed in a thread a couple of months ago, elicited a great deal of enthusiasm among many members, but was rejected out of hand by proz.com staff.
[Edited at 2009-12-05 05:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Blueboard is about customer reliability | Dec 5, 2009 |
In my opinion even if the customer paid 0,000001 cents instead of 5 cents, you should not make a Blueboard entry about them if they honoured their commitments to you, i.e. they are responsive to your queries, sustain a good communication, establish reasonable deadlines, describe instructions and expectations clearly and, most of all, pay the full amount at the agreed moment.
No, low rate is not a reason for a low Blueboard score. After all, nobody forces you to take low-pay jobs!
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 07:59
French to German
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I have always been surprised at the good ratings of sweatshops, no matter for which reason they were given. It is clear to me that a good rating doesn't go hand in hand with acceptable rates. I therefore prefer not to bid in such cases (and, as said elsewhere, these are 90% of the job offers received through the Internet - and not only ProZ.com).
Offers in which the outsourcer sets the rates and possibly demands so-called Trados rebates do not make any sense to me from t... See more I have always been surprised at the good ratings of sweatshops, no matter for which reason they were given. It is clear to me that a good rating doesn't go hand in hand with acceptable rates. I therefore prefer not to bid in such cases (and, as said elsewhere, these are 90% of the job offers received through the Internet - and not only ProZ.com).
Offers in which the outsourcer sets the rates and possibly demands so-called Trados rebates do not make any sense to me from the structural point of view. In my opinion, such a behaviour clearly does not fit in the "rules of a free, worlwide translation market" - and these outsourcers get a -5 in my personal Blue Board, if only because they were ("happily"?) unable to negotiate with their own client (who may even and technically speaking not be the real end client) in the first place.
Hence my conclusion: I will only care to check BB ratings if I can manage to find a common ground with the outsourcer, thus trying to determine whether they have normal payment practices (and the BB is one out of 3 or 4 sources I check).
However, I also sometimes (often) see that colleagues comment about low rates and/or impossible deadlines.
[Edited at 2009-12-05 09:51 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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BB ratings reflect what happened AFTER you got the PO, i.e. everything you could not know when you accepted it.
So, you agreed upon price, payment terms, deadline and so on and cannot complain about agreed terms afterwards. As Tomás says, nobody is forced to take a job he/she doesn't like!
You can complain/rate instead about everything you couldn't know before: if they didn't pay, didn't pay on time, didn't answer your e-mails or your calls... Or viceversa, if they pai... See more BB ratings reflect what happened AFTER you got the PO, i.e. everything you could not know when you accepted it.
So, you agreed upon price, payment terms, deadline and so on and cannot complain about agreed terms afterwards. As Tomás says, nobody is forced to take a job he/she doesn't like!
You can complain/rate instead about everything you couldn't know before: if they didn't pay, didn't pay on time, didn't answer your e-mails or your calls... Or viceversa, if they paid even before the term, were extremley helpful and so on.
With all my scepticism towards the BB, I find this is perfectly logical.
[Bearbeitet am 2009-12-05 13:14 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Freelance DK
Denmark
Local time: 07:59
English to Danish
+ ...
Even you did the job to the very low rate we have free marketpricing - so as long as they keep what you agree and what they promise the company will be ok...
| | | | | A Green Board? | Dec 5, 2009 |
Some colleagues said it right: The Blue Board is about everything else except rates. It's about the business and personal relationship between translator and outsourcer.
The only case when rates (should) enter the BB is if the outsourcer attempts to change them after the fait accompli, i.e. the translator has delivered the... See more Some colleagues said it right: The Blue Board is about everything else except rates. It's about the business and personal relationship between translator and outsourcer.
The only case when rates (should) enter the BB is if the outsourcer attempts to change them after the fait accompli, i.e. the translator has delivered the job, and the outsourcer unilaterally decides - with or without proper justification and/or factual evidence - to change to change the agreed rates.
Though I never had quality issues with clients - I turn down any jobs I can't do properly, never deliver late, and will fix any accidental flaws - I've seen too many cases of outsourcers trying to lower prices after delivery, under the most varied excuses. If a job does not come out as expected, the client's selection process is to be blamed (including too low rates offered), not the translator. The client should bite the bullet and - at their choice - never hire that translator again. It is not justifiable to bluntly deduct from payment any arbitrary amount on alleged poor quality, late delivery, rework costs, whatever.
So the solution for classifying outsourcers by their rates offered would be a "Green Board".
In the old days I used to tell prospects my rates. Sometimes they'd send me a job, or a sample, and ask for an estimate, like any services-providing business in the world other than translation. They would compare the cost/benefit ratio of all vendors they could find, and select the best option for their needs abd available resources.
Then Proz and alikes came up with reverse auctions, and some (not all!) clients began telling prospective vendors how much, how, and when they would be willing to pay, on a take it or drop it basis.
Now I see basically two types of clients/outsourcers:
a) How much do you charge? - This is the traditional type. Of course every translator will bid a competitive rate for what they offer. This precludes hiring super-duper-master-translators to do simple jobs any high potential beginner could handle properly.
b) We pay $... - Take it or drop it! - These are not necessarily bottom-feeders. They are simply committed to a preset budget, and will take the best translator who will do the job for that price.
So the Green Board could be no more than two colored numbers beside the outsourcer's trade name.
Any translator voting there must state that they have either worked for that outsourcer, or have been formally and individually* offered a job by them, and the latter may challenge this as a fact.
* I mean that plain job ads are not allowed as such, however Connect jobs and direct contacts by e-mail or otherwise are.
One colored number would be green, indicated the quantity of translators that voted as saying "This outsourcer either asked for and accepted my rates, or offered to pay a rate equal to or higher than what I would charge for the kind of work required."
The other colored number would be red, indicating the quantity of translators that voted as saying "This outsourcer formally and specifically offered to me (and not generally to anyone) rates that are below what I would charge for the kind of work involved."
The idea is still in the rough, I'm sure it must be refined, but IMHO it would cover the rates issue. The interesting point about it is that the individual votes may vary with language pairs; one preset rate could be high for one pair and low for another. The comparison would show if the outsourcer's price policy is adequate for the language pairs mix they have in demand. ▲ Collapse
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| Proz.com staff | Dec 5, 2009 |
QUOTE
Most recently, I suggested some structured means of allowing translators to record their protest against what they considered substandard rates offered on this site's job postings (e.g., a radial button on a job post saying "Like" or "Dislike", with the responses becoming part of that company's Blue Board record). This idea, discussed in a thread a couple of months ago, elicited a great deal of enthusiasm among many members, but was rejected out of hand by proz.com staff.
UNQUO... See more QUOTE
Most recently, I suggested some structured means of allowing translators to record their protest against what they considered substandard rates offered on this site's job postings (e.g., a radial button on a job post saying "Like" or "Dislike", with the responses becoming part of that company's Blue Board record). This idea, discussed in a thread a couple of months ago, elicited a great deal of enthusiasm among many members, but was rejected out of hand by proz.com staff.
UNQUOTE
... does not interfere in any way with price negotiations; I tried to persuade Proz.com staff a couple of months ago to blacklist 'bottom feeders'. However, it is a free market and they are not willing - or allowed? - to interfere.
I did notice, however, one Blue Board entry for a UK translation agency, stating that the agency's estimated time for proofreading is quite low - hence optimistic. Such an entry does imply lower than average pay in my opinion.
[Edited at 2009-12-05 12:39 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Read the rules | Dec 5, 2009 |
Nobody forces to accept a low rate.
Once both parties agree on rates, deadlines and payment terms, that`s it. If the rate offfered is too low, just do not bid or do not accept the offer.
You may post only about clients you have worked for and only if the oursourcer does not comply with the PO (doesn`t pay on time, changes deadlines on the road or refuses to pay the agreed rate).
The Blue Board is about reliability, not rates. And so it says in the BB rule... See more Nobody forces to accept a low rate.
Once both parties agree on rates, deadlines and payment terms, that`s it. If the rate offfered is too low, just do not bid or do not accept the offer.
You may post only about clients you have worked for and only if the oursourcer does not comply with the PO (doesn`t pay on time, changes deadlines on the road or refuses to pay the agreed rate).
The Blue Board is about reliability, not rates. And so it says in the BB rules, had you taken the time to read them.
In short, the answer to your question is NO.
[Edited at 2009-12-05 12:50 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Since the rates were supposedly known when the job was accepted, then the translator must blame him/herself for accepting the job to begin with.
If the agency lowered the agreed rates after the job was handed in, then yes. Do give them a bad rating.
| | | | | If you don't know the whole truth: maybe it's overreaction | Dec 5, 2009 |
Tomasz Poplawski wrote:
Therefore, we can only offer $.055 per word. However, we hope that we will be able to complete future projects at better rates."(..)
To my utter surprise, I just checked them on Blue Board, and their rating is 4.9, with many raving reviews.
Am I overreacting, or do you think that offering slave rates reflects on their professionalism?
They know that this is not a good rate. So it's very probable that they had paid better rates in the past. Considering that it's overhasty to presume that colleagues accepted slave rates.
It happened to me that a new agency offered me a low rate, I checked the BB: an estimated colleague gave them a 5. I contacted her telling about the low rate and she replied that they always paid her more.
But of course there is also a category of people mentioned by Robert:
"...I hope to God they offer me work again!"
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Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 01:59
Spanish to English
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| .05 translations are useless | Dec 5, 2009 |
Tomasz Poplawski wrote:
...do you think that offering slave rates reflects on their professionalism?
That all depends. Did they inform their client that their low bid is for a translation that will be completed by translators earning 1/3 of their usual rates (in other words, by only those translators who are not busy with work at higher rates - because they are new, incompetent, etc.)? Did they inform their client that they will be contacting a series of random "translators" on the internet and that, despite their flash website jargon ("we have a network of language professionals" or similar), they have never worked with them before and have no idea what the results or quality will be? Do you consider a company professional when they have no problems undercutting other companies and deceiving other translators with the "promise of future work at a higher rate" and possibly deceiving the client who foolishly believes that they will ever get anything useful for .055 cents? They would be better off using Google.
[Edited at 2009-12-05 15:43 GMT]
| | | | MacLeod Cushing
Canada
Local time: 22:59
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
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| Harvard published my .05 translations | Dec 5, 2009 |
The "Google" comment is offensive. I have had translations published by Harvard University for which I was paid 100 Colombian pesos per word by their authors -- about .05. I was glad to get the money because I can translate straight text at the rate of 1,000 words per hour, which comes out to $50 per hour. Veteran translators should quit slamming translators who charge less. I do it because I have only been translating for five years and I still consider myself an apprentice, but that doesn't me... See more The "Google" comment is offensive. I have had translations published by Harvard University for which I was paid 100 Colombian pesos per word by their authors -- about .05. I was glad to get the money because I can translate straight text at the rate of 1,000 words per hour, which comes out to $50 per hour. Veteran translators should quit slamming translators who charge less. I do it because I have only been translating for five years and I still consider myself an apprentice, but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to work. Looking down one's nose at the beginners in one's profession is very unbecoming to those who engage in it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 01:59
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Kudos to Jeff | Dec 5, 2009 |
His summary has powerfully encapsulated everything that is wrong with these kinds of postings.
[Edited at 2009-12-05 16:17 GMT]
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