| A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Does offering very low rate justify bad Blue Board review? Téma indítója: Tomasz Poplawski
|
|---|
Abba Storgen (X)
Egyesült Államok
Local time: 18:17
görög - angol
+ ...
| That's what we' re doing too. | Dec 6, 2009 |
"expect a site like this one "to do something" on the other hand"
Nobody can actually "do" something because there are no policies. The industry is unregulated. Thank God for that, since I would not like the government (or an association of weirdos) setting up prices (which would be "minimum salary", most likely) but on the other hand it doesn't help trying to set up ethics policies.
At any rate, if a poor person wants their birth certificate translated for their Visa a... See more "expect a site like this one "to do something" on the other hand"
Nobody can actually "do" something because there are no policies. The industry is unregulated. Thank God for that, since I would not like the government (or an association of weirdos) setting up prices (which would be "minimum salary", most likely) but on the other hand it doesn't help trying to set up ethics policies.
At any rate, if a poor person wants their birth certificate translated for their Visa application, they should also have the option of a low price. Same for a small start-up company that wants to sell a product in the market but does not have bailout money and direct favoritism from the Governments ("free market", ah?).
The prices in this market ARE determined by the translators. Period. An agency will give the minimum price it can give in order to get the translators on board. If the translators have a minimum price of 12 cents per word, then the agency will give them 12. If the translators have a minimum price of 3 cents per word, then the agency will give 3.
Translators do exactly the same thing: If they want to buy a refrigerator, they will chose the store with the best "price/quality" ratio. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | And to drive the prices up again? | Dec 6, 2009 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
The prices in this market ARE determined by the translators. Period. An agency will give the minimum price it can give in order to get the translators on board. If the translators have a minimum price of 12 cents per word, then the agency will give them 12. If the translators have a minimum price of 3 cents per word, then the agency will give 3.
Translators do exactly the same thing: If they want to buy a refrigerator, they will chose the store with the best "price/quality" ratio.
How are we to drive the prices up again, if the agencies will not pay 12 cents, and simply refuse to engage translators at that price?
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
Egyesült Államok
Local time: 18:17
görög - angol
+ ...
Hi Astrid,
I got an idea:
a) All these politically correct project managers in New York and eslewhere, who claim that they would like "humane treatment of the countries of the Third World" and are "socialists" and big supporters of equal rights, should stop treating translators in Europe as "fourth class citizens" and trying to exploit them with the logic of some supposed "free market" ("free market" and exploitation is good only when we' re doing it, and it's not good ... See more Hi Astrid,
I got an idea:
a) All these politically correct project managers in New York and eslewhere, who claim that they would like "humane treatment of the countries of the Third World" and are "socialists" and big supporters of equal rights, should stop treating translators in Europe as "fourth class citizens" and trying to exploit them with the logic of some supposed "free market" ("free market" and exploitation is good only when we' re doing it, and it's not good if other companies do it).
b) Translators should stop being computer nerds and dorks and start being business peoplem because they are actually considered business people by the tax authorities (just in case thy don't know it yet).
c) Translators in countries which just entered capitalism should stop living according to "free market principles" that do not exist, while torturing themselves like idiots on the basis of such amateuristic veiws.
These things will not stop, that's why prices will keep falling down for translators. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | cut out the middle man | Dec 6, 2009 |
If you regard agencies as the main cause of falling rates, then, at the risk of shooting myself in the foot given that I also operate as an outsourcer, maybe you need to be more canny and cut out the middleman, and cultivate more direct client relationships.
| | |
|
|
|
| Well, it's not our fault if we are computer nerds | Dec 6, 2009 |
We are so busy trying to build up secret matches in our TMs from other projects - matches that the PMs don't know about and can't charge us for, so that we can secretly earn a higher hourly rate than they intend us to.
Yes, OK, I got the picture: there is no simple answer.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X) 
Franciaország
Local time: 01:17
francia - német
+ ...
| OT: Biz people | Dec 7, 2009 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
b) Translators should stop being computer nerds and dorks and start being business people because they are actually considered business people by the tax authorities (just in case thy don't know it yet).
Indeed... Working for intermediaries over the Internet is worlds apart from working with direct clients you can (and will) meet. Sometimes, it can be quite of an adaptation - so it is better to be well prepared.
Socialising mainly through Facebook, talking to one's notebook (as you said in another thread) or becoming a nocturnal creature does not help much in such cases!
Edited to add: I seem to remember something Henry said during his speech at the virtual conference. Was it not along the lines of "Clients now want to see (meet?) translators"? Have to look for the correct quote...
[Edited at 2009-12-07 07:19 GMT]
| | | | | Use of the BB/price comments | Dec 8, 2009 |
I would agree that the general function of the BB mainly appears to be to provide a place to comment on the nature of the business relationship with the outsourcer (communications, project management, timely payment, etc.).
However, I think it's safe to assume that translators mainly check the BB when considering working with a new outsourcer - and because that often involves responding to an inquiry or making a bid *before* the translator knows how much the outsourcer is willing to... See more I would agree that the general function of the BB mainly appears to be to provide a place to comment on the nature of the business relationship with the outsourcer (communications, project management, timely payment, etc.).
However, I think it's safe to assume that translators mainly check the BB when considering working with a new outsourcer - and because that often involves responding to an inquiry or making a bid *before* the translator knows how much the outsourcer is willing to pay, it's my opinion that suitably professional comments about rates paid would not be inappropriate - at least as long as there is no separate review board specifically designed for this type of information.
I see a lot of inquiries and potential jobs advertised that make no mention of the rate the outsourcer has budgeted for a particular project or even as a "standard". After seeing this time after time, it seems likely that this is an intentional strategy used by agencies to start a bidding war - and who knows whether other (quality) factors are even taken into account? (Some of us who are veterans of the proofreading wars might have something to say about that)
So, for example, if another professional were to write "Great communications, on-time payment, but this agency typically pays 2/3 of the rate I usually charge", I would certainly welcome this information and take it into consideration when making a decision on how (or whether) to reply to a company.
My 2c
[Edited at 2009-12-08 18:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
Egyesült Államok
Local time: 19:17
spanyol - angol
+ ...
| How to easily make the Blue Board more functional | Dec 9, 2009 |
1.
Limit the rating to a number only *except* in cases of low ratings (i.e. of 1 or 2), where a short comment can be allowed.
2.
The enthusiastic comments that are now so ubiquitous on the Blue Board can instead be posted on the corporate or individual profile page of the outsourcers (a special place for doing this could even be devised by site staff). The section could simply be titled "Testimonials."
3.
Rate can be taken into co... See more 1.
Limit the rating to a number only *except* in cases of low ratings (i.e. of 1 or 2), where a short comment can be allowed.
2.
The enthusiastic comments that are now so ubiquitous on the Blue Board can instead be posted on the corporate or individual profile page of the outsourcers (a special place for doing this could even be devised by site staff). The section could simply be titled "Testimonials."
3.
Rate can be taken into consideration in providing the 1-5 global rating for each outsourcer.
These changes will not entirely prevent inflated ratings and self-censorship (I think you would need anonymity to accomplish that) but they would at least give the BB a more professional look by eliminating the unctuous flattery and frenzied tail-wagging that characterize so many of the present comments.
An additional idea:
Site members/users who post ratings can show good citizenship by being willing to *privately* answer e-mails from other members/users working in the same pairs about rates offered by outsourcers they have rated.
[Edited at 2009-12-09 05:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
| What about now? | Dec 9, 2009 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
An additional idea:
Site members/users who post ratings can show good citizenship by being willing to *privately* answer e-mails from other members/users working in the same pairs about rates offered by outsourcers they have rated.
[Edited at 2009-12-09 05:10 GMT]
Aren't they showing good citizenship now?
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Franciaország
Local time: 01:17
francia - német
+ ...
| Already doing this | Dec 9, 2009 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
An additional idea:
Site members/users who post ratings can show good citizenship by being willing to *privately* answer e-mails from other members/users working in the same pairs about rates offered by outsourcers they have rated.
Hi Robert and all,
my RFI concerning outsourcers were all dealt with so far - the colleagues contacted are eager to tell me why they gave this or that rating or why they made their comments (or no comment at all). This also includes rates, of course.
And I always reply to such requests too...
[Edited at 2009-12-09 08:34 GMT]
| | | | Robert Forstag
Egyesült Államok
Local time: 19:17
spanyol - angol
+ ...
| @Michal & Laurent | Dec 9, 2009 |
I have requested and willingly provided information also. My only point is that we should make this part of the internal culture of collegiality on this site by explicitly encouraging the practice.
As far as exchanging rate information, I don't think it is entirely a simple matter. Most freelancers are protective of such information (understandably so). If--for example--Harry and Dave both have worked with "Acme Translations" and Dave tells Harry he is earning 20% more on his work i... See more I have requested and willingly provided information also. My only point is that we should make this part of the internal culture of collegiality on this site by explicitly encouraging the practice.
As far as exchanging rate information, I don't think it is entirely a simple matter. Most freelancers are protective of such information (understandably so). If--for example--Harry and Dave both have worked with "Acme Translations" and Dave tells Harry he is earning 20% more on his work in the same language pair, even though they have the same qualifications and do the same work, then it wouldn't exactly do for Harry to send an angry e-mail to Acme demanding that he be paid just as much as his colleague Dave. Even if Harry sends an angry e-mail without mentioning Dave's name, the agency will probably be able to figure out where Harry got his information, and may decide not to give either Harry or Dave any more work.
I can also imagine instances where, because an individual is very new, has an empty profile, does not use their real name, displays questionable conduct, etc, that I would not feel comfortable providing rate information.
So, in sum: by no means a simple matter. But I think steps need to be taken in the direction of encouraging this practice. ▲ Collapse
| | | | John Rawlins
Spanyolország
Local time: 01:17
spanyol - angol
+ ...
| Sharing price info | Dec 9, 2009 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
So, in sum: by no means a simple matter. But I think steps need to be taken in the direction of encouraging this practice.
Absolutely Robert. Sharing information is the best defence against predatory practices. And bugger any agency that claims this is confidential information that shouldn't be shared.
| | |
|
|
|
| Anonymity and the usefulness of familiar faces | Dec 9, 2009 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
These changes will not entirely prevent inflated ratings and self-censorship (I think you would need anonymity to accomplish that) but they would at least give the BB a more professional look by eliminating the unctuous flattery and frenzied tail-wagging that characterize so many of the present comments.
Or one might simply decouple comments from the scores and randomize the order of all comments to provide some anonymity.
What is most useful to me is to see who has worked with a particular outsourcer. If I see a familiar colleague whose standards I respect giving a thumbs up or down, I'll often follow up with a private inquiry about the outsourcer. The specific rate information doesn't interest me much in doing so (I'll negotiate my own rates in any case), more the general business practices and "atmosphere" of the relationship.
| | | | | Sharing specific rate information is problematic | Dec 9, 2009 |
Robert already pointed out one problematic aspect - when contractors receiving lower rates would request higher ones based on the fact that others are paid higher.
There are more variations to the theme, for example the opposite, when a "player" decides to undercut another, offering his/her services to the outsourcer at a cheaper rate, in hopes of getting the business. There were people complaining about such experiences on the forums, not once, and that was without them explicitly telling... See more Robert already pointed out one problematic aspect - when contractors receiving lower rates would request higher ones based on the fact that others are paid higher.
There are more variations to the theme, for example the opposite, when a "player" decides to undercut another, offering his/her services to the outsourcer at a cheaper rate, in hopes of getting the business. There were people complaining about such experiences on the forums, not once, and that was without them explicitly telling anybody the rate they got from XYZ agency.
The third, and probably most important consideration is that agreements with agencies and end clients often include a clause that prohibits the discussion, disclosure of any information about the details of the business relationship, including the negotiated rates. I don't think this prohibition is necessary evil, I think it is part of doing business. I think it is standard practice in other professions, other industries as well.
That's why I am not convinced that ProZ.com should ENCOURAGE the exchange of such information, as others suggested.
Katalin ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Rate information in your profile | Dec 9, 2009 |
Showing rate information in your profile is the way to go if you feel like sharing your rate information.
I am not particularly inclined to share such information and don't see the use either: we as independent professionals are (or should be) mature enough to calculate our rate and defend it in a bidding situation.
| | | | | A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Does offering very low rate justify bad Blue Board review? | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
| | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
