| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Lucky language combinations ... How easy was it for you to learn your source language? Thread poster: Dylan J Hartmann
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How easy was it for you to learn your source language? (Assuming, of course, most of us are translators who translate into our native language). I had always assumed native bilingual kids had it easy, until my tri-lingual friend (David) from Chiang Mai explained that each of the languages he spoke (French, English, Thai) were learned in their own microcosm without any direct link to one another. I, on the other hand, had been uprooted from Australia by my parents at the age of 15 and put into an... See more How easy was it for you to learn your source language? (Assuming, of course, most of us are translators who translate into our native language). I had always assumed native bilingual kids had it easy, until my tri-lingual friend (David) from Chiang Mai explained that each of the languages he spoke (French, English, Thai) were learned in their own microcosm without any direct link to one another. I, on the other hand, had been uprooted from Australia by my parents at the age of 15 and put into an American (missionary) international school in Chiang Mai, Thailand. David demonstrated how every Thai word I learned had to be translated from English, so they were linked, whereas he’d learned each language independently since birth. Apparently this is why it’s more difficult for native bilinguals to translate – there isn’t an obvious bridge linking each word in the languages. What do you think?
My translation success always gets dismissed by other translators as being because I’m ‘lucky to have that language combination’. (If you didn’t already know, I’m a Thai to English translator). Apparently there’s just too much competition in their language pair, there are too many bottom feeders, too many non-certified translators, MT is just too good, excuse after excuse… Success is out there waiting for everyone, don’t try to discount my efforts in an attempt to justify your own lack of impetus!
So, what was it like for me learning Thai as an Aussie teenager? Put quite frankly, I had to put myself out there and challenge myself to make non-English speaking friends. Those days were tough. There was a feeling of absolute powerlessness and stupidity that I hated but had to be willing to accept when sitting in social groups, as the only one not knowing what was being said. I think we really have to expose ourselves to this sort of vulnerability in order to strengthen ourselves for future endeavours.
I was lucky in one sense, because I started my schooling in Thailand in the grade 11 class at CMIS. Learning Thai was a compulsory subject at school but there were no basic classes at my age-level, so I went straight in with the advanced class. I remember on the first day, the teacher (Kru Worawan) promised my classmates bonus points for every new Thai phrase they taught me. Day two and a boy in my class had me saying ‘phom rak khun’ to which he explained meant ‘I like school’. ‘Rak khun’ I thought sounded a lot like raccoon, so it was easy to remember. Next lesson, there I stood in front of the 15 or so other students and said to my teacher, proudly and confidently, the phrase that I’d learned, ‘I love you’, and the whole class burst out with laughter. Kru Worawan blushed shyly as she explained what I’d actually said! This experience was another driver that would help to make sure I’d never have to go through that again!
Complimenting the Thai I picked up with my skater friends outside of school with formal lessons really boosted the speed at which I picked up the language. That, along with the drivers mentioned above, and of course the principal motivation that any 15-16 year old boy typically has (to talk to girls), meant I was fluent in no time. Was this easy? No! Did I have to work harder than anyone else? Yes! Thai language is particularly difficult because unlike most East Asian or Southeast Asian languages, it hasn’t gone through a process of simplification or Latinisation of its script.
Actually, Thai was so hard to learn. Most non-natives end up sounding like idiots when they speak it. I guess it’s the same with gringos speaking Español but Thai has the added complexity of tones. If your intonation just went up instead of going up and back down again, you might be saying something completely different. An interesting caveat for Thai learners is you can’t use vocal tones to express emotions (e.g. excited, angry, harsh tones) like we do in English. To express emotions, you just need to add words to the end of the sentence. For masculine speakers, three examples are krub, ja, and wa. To say krub at the end of the sentence means you’re being polite. To say ja at the end means you’re being sweet or flirtatious, and wa means you’ve got a problem (or are best friends swearing at each other). People like to learn swear words, so an easy one to learn is ‘arai wa’, or ‘what the &*#!’ Fortunately, I don’t have such a bad farang accent. But it’s not totally natural either, as I started when I was already a teenager.
I did a four year bachelors degree in Thai studies. I started off at the Australian National University (ANU), got homesick for Thailand so went back, then after a one year internship finished the degree at Mae Fah Luang University (MFU) in Chiang Rai. I’d become a TCK, or a third culture kid who, while in Australia, had the worst culture shock going from tropical Thailand 40°C summer to Canberra -4°C winter. When I got to Canberra, it was not an easy place to be, so far from all my loved ones and family. It’s where Australia’s parliament is located and I bet many of our representatives experience that same kind of loneliness when they arrive at Australia’s Capitol Hill, hence their often stupid decisions. Nevertheless, I finished a BA in Thai language and culture then started working in the International Affairs Division at MFU, that’s when I began moonlighting as a freelance translator, and enrolled in a Master of Studies back at ANU.
What would you do on $900/month?
What would you do on USD 900/month? While this was a ‘generous’ salary for Thailand, it was pretty limiting so I decided to put my language skills to work. There are some who are passionate about language and that’s why they love translating. I must be the minority who chose to do it for the money. I admit, I am very talented but I am unapologetically a translator for the money. I’d always planned to do aid or NGO work but after finishing my ANU masters, my translation work increased tenfold! Back to the early days before that though, when I was working at MFU the salary was crap (30,000 baht). I found that I could earn 100 baht/page (USD 3/page) translating, and I figured if ten pages is 1/30th my monthly salary, I can do 300 pages a month and that would equal it! Thai project managers loved me, they sent me heaps of work and I built up a wealth of knowledge and experience. I utilised tech from the very beginning (some of my old ProZ.com posts reveal this naivety), and soon realised that I should be focused on the international market, not the Thai market where even at 1 baht/word I was undervaluing myself. I was probably as busy with workload then, with a full time day job, moonlighting as a translator and doing masters degree off-campus while supporting my wife and kid, as I am now.
The trick is to know your limits. How far can you push yourself, how much work can you handle? You might be surprised, not when you’re asked to deliver 20k words within 24 hours and can deliver with 5 minutes to spare, but when you handle the same kind of workload next time just as well. Being ‘busy’ is completely relative to everyone’s normal status quo.
My ‘lucky language combination’ was a challenge to achieve. There are only 70 million or so speakers of Thai and the country is administered so badly and officials are so incompetent and corrupt that business is far from prospering. This, combined with so many Thai translators willing to work for peanuts, even the Thai-based Southeast Asian Association of Professional Translators and Interpreters @ProtiSea recommends members charge USD 0.045/word to international clients…Disgraceful! Thai is a difficult to learn, small language, with competitors ready to charge 1/4 of your rates, please tell me how this is lucky?
The trick to earn big bucks, I think for any language combination, is to offer premium service and premium quality and don’t settle for anything else. While I’m getting big name direct clients these days, that’s not necessarily the only way. Pick any one of (or all) the world’s translation mega-agencies, give them your full dedication and they’ll reward you very handsomely. Of course, you’ll have to pass their tests and do training but it’s worth it if you can get in!
To finish this blog today, luck has nothing to do with it. I mentioned ProZ.com, but I should’ve said more about it being instrumental for getting all my international clients. I’ll write more on it another time. There were also a few more details about our return to Aus and I barely introduced my wife and our kids! We all have the capacity to accomplish great things, just keep at it!
Peace, DJH
taken from Dylan's blog, Ruminations of a Translator: https://djhartmann.com/ruminations ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adieu 
Ukrainian to English
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| They are right | Aug 17, 2021 |
That IS pretty easy... or, rather, the challenging part was completed long before you realized that translation was something you might do for money one day.
Certainly easier than translating from your 5th and 6th language into your 3rd.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 01:25
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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We also had a friend with three native languages (spent childhood in three different countries). After closer analysis, we decided they don’t have a native language. All three sounded odd with an accent. So yeah, it’s a thing. A person without a native language.
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My source language(s) aren’t as exotic as yours but even if there is a lot of competition I have been lucky enough to be translating for over 40 years (part-time for a few years and full-time since 1985). I am fluent in French as I started learning it in the kindergarten and then had 30 years of full immersion; my English was learned in high-school and university; my Italian was learned very late in life when I was working in-house (learning another language was a basic requirement for my prom... See more My source language(s) aren’t as exotic as yours but even if there is a lot of competition I have been lucky enough to be translating for over 40 years (part-time for a few years and full-time since 1985). I am fluent in French as I started learning it in the kindergarten and then had 30 years of full immersion; my English was learned in high-school and university; my Italian was learned very late in life when I was working in-house (learning another language was a basic requirement for my promotion); my knowledge of Spanish is mainly self-taught. ▲ Collapse
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you put a picture of the Grange there and now it's all I can think of....
| | | | Dylan J Hartmann
Australia
Member (2014)
Thai to English
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MODERATOR TOPIC STARTER | Wouldn't it be nice! | Aug 17, 2021 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: you put a picture of the Grange there and now it's all I can think of....
Well... wouldn't that be something to think of on $900/month! "Monthly salary equal to a bottle of wine"
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for this interesting write up.
That price tag on the wine is quite sobering.
| | | | | Sorry but... | Aug 17, 2021 |
... these inspirational success stories always stick in my throat.
I think luck has everything to do with it. Plenty of talented people work hard and get nowhere.
I do alright and that's largely down to my ex-wife once having helped out the friend of a friend of a bank's chief translator.
My choice of source language was down to a pin stuck in a list with my eyes shut.
Had my errant father not been a doctor, I may well have studied medicine in... See more ... these inspirational success stories always stick in my throat.
I think luck has everything to do with it. Plenty of talented people work hard and get nowhere.
I do alright and that's largely down to my ex-wife once having helped out the friend of a friend of a bank's chief translator.
My choice of source language was down to a pin stuck in a list with my eyes shut.
Had my errant father not been a doctor, I may well have studied medicine instead.
I could have been born abroad and had a different mother tongue.
So many chance events. So many lucky breaks. ▲ Collapse
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Dylan J Hartmann
Australia
Member (2014)
Thai to English
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MODERATOR TOPIC STARTER
Ice Scream wrote:
I think luck has everything to do with it. Plenty of talented people work hard and get nowhere.
Like I said above, “Success is out there waiting for everyone, don’t try to discount my efforts in an attempt to justify your own lack of impetus!”
Those talented people might just be relying on ‘talent’. They need to take the extra step to make gains in this industry. The strategy is pretty simple and there are tonnes of guides out there that set out a plan for you: 1, 2, 3. You might want to start out by applying for the mentor program here, as there are plenty of other ProZians ready to help you.
Good luck!
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:25
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| This is not a blog | Aug 18, 2021 |
Dylan Jan Hartmann wrote:
....To finish this blog today...
This is not a blog.
As for success: being born was my first big career move. Since then it's been up, up, all the way.
[Edited at 2021-08-18 08:33 GMT]
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 01:25
Spanish to English
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My main source language is Spanish, and I only ever studied it in my final year at university, where my degree was in French and Russian. The Spanish component was a "half class" that I chose to fill in my credits - other options could have been Polish, but I've never liked the spelling aspect of that language, or Linguistics, or Phonetics. I was thinking about going to Spain to work in TEFL, so I took the Spanish option. It was very very basic, with content like "Excuse me, where is the bus sto... See more My main source language is Spanish, and I only ever studied it in my final year at university, where my degree was in French and Russian. The Spanish component was a "half class" that I chose to fill in my credits - other options could have been Polish, but I've never liked the spelling aspect of that language, or Linguistics, or Phonetics. I was thinking about going to Spain to work in TEFL, so I took the Spanish option. It was very very basic, with content like "Excuse me, where is the bus stop?"
Having studied other European languages (French and German) from an early age, I found Spanish much easier than Polish or Russian, and when I came to Spain not long after graduating, I quickly acquired the language and within a couple of months was fluent enough to get by in most situations. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 02:25
Member
English to Turkish
I reckon you'd probably see a lot less of your wife and kid if you were a German to English or French to English translator based in Australia, because, if you wanted to work with decent paying agencies and still live in the down under, you'd be setting your body clock to Europe's time and working while they're asleep. But being a Thai to English translator and having such a great command of your source language (thanks to being immersed in Thai culture at a very young age, which is purely down ... See more I reckon you'd probably see a lot less of your wife and kid if you were a German to English or French to English translator based in Australia, because, if you wanted to work with decent paying agencies and still live in the down under, you'd be setting your body clock to Europe's time and working while they're asleep. But being a Thai to English translator and having such a great command of your source language (thanks to being immersed in Thai culture at a very young age, which is purely down to luck) you can afford to have European agencies wait for 8 to 10 hours before you wake up and reply to their emails, and not worry about them going to the next translator in your language pair (which I wonder how many there are of them, say, in France, Italy, UK, Germany or even in the US? You also say that 'it’s more difficult for native bilinguals to translate' so I presume you don't have much competition from Asia, Australia or USA either?). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discount your efforts, but you are indeed in a unique position which has a lot to do with luck. You once said 'turning down jobs from an agency (which I took it to mean a regular and decent paying client, most of whom are located in Europe) is like a death sentence', and you were/are right in your assessment. I just can't imagine myself living in that timezone and working in my language pair which is full of bottom feeders (I also couldn't afford to live down there because of the latter reason even if I could somehow manage to live like a vampire). ▲ Collapse
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Dylan J Hartmann
Australia
Member (2014)
Thai to English
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MODERATOR TOPIC STARTER | Normalising Chaos | Aug 18, 2021 |
Baran Keki wrote:
You once said 'turning down jobs from an agency (which I took it to mean a regular and decent paying client, most of whom are located in Europe) is like a death sentence', and you were/are right in your assessment. I just can't imagine myself living in that timezone and working in my language pair which is full of bottom feeders.
A very Euro-centric response! Work comes from NY, HK, SYD, MUM, LDN.
From another blog post of mine, I think you might enjoy Baran:
I realised pretty soon where most of the work came from and adjusted my life accordingly. In Australia that means waking up around 3:30am in order to have a good window of opportunity to claim and negotiate big jobs from project managers in New York ($$$). These are the kind of jobs that aren’t available after 15 minutes. It goes without saying, being a fast shooting email responder is life or death in this industry.
https://djhartmann.com/normalising-chaos/
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 02:25
Member
English to Turkish
| Can't argue with that | Aug 18, 2021 |
Dylan Jan Hartmann wrote:
These are the kind of jobs that aren’t available after 15 minutes. It goes without saying, being a fast shooting email responder is life or death in this industry.
Though those kinds of agencies are usually sneered at by those working for the fabled/elusive 'boutique agencies that pay 0.17 cents per word', but they still pay better than those based in Hong Kong or Mumbai...
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:25
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| How easy was it for you to learn your source language? | Aug 18, 2021 |
How easy was it for you to learn your source language?
I think the real question is: how literate and fluent are you in your target language?
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