| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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psicutrinius 
Spain
Local time: 19:30
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| @Lluis... (off topic) | Aug 4, 2012 |
Enhorabona, senyor Arri. Aquesta SÍ que es una senyora referència...
This said, I must add that I wholeheartedly agree with your post.
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:30
German to English
+ ...
| Arithmetic in 2 languages | Aug 4, 2012 |
Helena Chavarria wrote:
I've just realised that our native language is the one we use when we do mental arithmetic: when we're in the supermarket and we're working out which item works out cheapest, when we repeat a phone number to ourselves, work out the date or do any mental calculation.
I think there's a lot of validity in that. When I'm counting or doing some arithmetic I often try to do it in Swiss German dialect (I lived in that environment for 6 years, in my 20s). I can do it fluently, but it's usually consciously a translation from English. For example, if I see a written "150", it immediately puts the words "hundred and fifty" in my mind, which I can immediately follow with "hundertfüfzg", nearly without thinking. I'm not claiming a non-English native language at all, but the phenomenon is probably similar - your first reaction when an arithmetic task presents itself is in your native language. I suppose that could be in language A or B for some truly bilingual people, and would probably depend on which language they were using immediately before this arithmetic task.
When I was a postgraduate student in Manchester, a fellow student was born in Germany and lived there until the age of about 10, then Canada. As a result, he told me he did simple arithmetic in German, but equations and calculus in English. Did he therefore have 2 native languages?
Oliver
[Edited at 2012-08-04 23:49 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:30
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Mental arithmetic | Aug 5, 2012 |
During the cold war, this method was (and perhaps still is) used in spy tests.
Scientists have been studying this for decades. My understanding is that it indeed exposes the dominant language. As for bilingual people, they will invariably do their mental arithmetic in the language in which they learned the skill, i.e. their early years.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 18:30
Member (2007)
English
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| Personal experience | Aug 5, 2012 |
Helena Chavarria wrote:
I've just realised that our native language is the one we use when we do mental arithmetic: when we're in the supermarket and we're working out which item works out cheapest, when we repeat a phone number to ourselves, work out the date or do any mental calculation.
It's the example I always gave to jobseekers on my CV workshop. Very many put "bilingual" as their level in English, although native language was never in dispute. Probably 75% were stretching the truth a little when they changed it to "fluent".
It's also a question I've asked my son, and he confirms that he does mental arithmetic in both his languages. At work, with the French representative of American software, it depends which language he's using at the time. But then he's constantly used each language since the age of seven (when he was learning arithmetic), so I suppose he has two native languages. He's certainly totally bilingual.
But does that help? We could ask people what they do, but unfortunately, it still won't catch the liars. Unless we have a mind reader on hand.
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Chris Ellison
Spain
Local time: 19:30
Member (2013)
Spanish to English
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| Dominant language | Aug 5, 2012 |
This is an interesting thread, thank you all.
I'm suspicious of the native language arithmetic claim though: )
Based on the observations of my 8 yr old 100% trilingual son, I would suggest that there IS a dominant language for arithmetic - in his case Catalan purely because he studies more maths in Catalan, not English. He is fully capable of doing the same calculations in both Spanish and English, but it ju... See more This is an interesting thread, thank you all.
I'm suspicious of the native language arithmetic claim though:)
Based on the observations of my 8 yr old 100% trilingual son, I would suggest that there IS a dominant language for arithmetic - in his case Catalan purely because he studies more maths in Catalan, not English. He is fully capable of doing the same calculations in both Spanish and English, but it just happens that his maths teacher at school is Catalan. We do use maths books form the UK at home though. If we continue to broaden his experience of English as we would do for our kids if they were born in the UK, I have hopes that he will grow up to be a fully-functioning trilinguist! ;o)
Does this make his English and Spanish any less native than his Catalan, even though this third language may continue to be "dominant" when it comes to maths (and dreaming, too, perhaps?)
Cx ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:30
Hebrew to English
| Let's look at some linguistic research......... | Aug 5, 2012 |
Since many on one side of this argument have been accused of using non-linguistic unscientific arguments, let's have a look, shall we?
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Skutnabb-Kangas, Tove (1984). Bilingualism or not ‑ the education of minorities. Clevedon, Avon: Multilingual Matters p18.
There is a common problem with most of these definitions in the present context of native language verification in that:
♫ Origin
♫ Identification (a)
♫ Competence*
♫ Function
...are all subject to self-assessment and therefore cannot be relied upon to filter out liars.
*Competence is currently self-assessed on here (unless a member of the Certified PRO network where it is peer assessed). However, many people are uncomfortable with the idea of their peers (and competitors) passing judgement on their competence so for sake of argument that leaves us one option.....
♫ Identification (b)
Leaving aside aspects of "competency", this seems the only way which isn't self-assessed, which would be harder to lie your way out of. If you can convince a panel of native-speakers, made up of say 3/4 people that you are a native speaker then...sorted.
Q: Would a minority of non-native speakers still pass through?
A: Of course they would, but if they are so convincing as to pass through a handful of native speakers undetected then they deserve it.
Of course, there is the argument we should be assessing writing, if anything, which is true for translators writing is all that matters, so maybe it could be the same set-up as above only your writing has to pass through a panel of native-speakers - this would also eliminate any accusations of bias due to accent, dialect etc, so this would appear to be the better option. The spoken test could always be used as a back-up for people who appeal or feel that their writing was unfairly judged or somesuch.
This doesn't seem to me to be something that would be impossible, or even improbable to implement, it's based on a nice solid foundation of linguistic research and the only people who would block such a move are the very liars this thread is about and who have a very good reason to object over anything and everything which might expose them.
| | | | | Thank you, Ty | Aug 5, 2012 |
Finally something scientific. Now you probably see the problem -- the fact that it in the term itself. If people claimed different languages as their L1 (not native language) these really would be lies, because one usually has one L1, the most 2 (if the father speaks a different language). If people state English as their L1 and their mother spoke only Spanish, just as an example, and they lived in non English-speaking country for the first years of their lives, that would be a pure lie. Native ... See more Finally something scientific. Now you probably see the problem -- the fact that it in the term itself. If people claimed different languages as their L1 (not native language) these really would be lies, because one usually has one L1, the most 2 (if the father speaks a different language). If people state English as their L1 and their mother spoke only Spanish, just as an example, and they lived in non English-speaking country for the first years of their lives, that would be a pure lie. Native language has a few different definition according to which the term can be used. Some of them are absolutely non-measurable -- internal identification, especially, and the language the person speaks best -- it does not imply without any errors -- just best of all the languages the person speaks. So either the term native language would have to be changed to L1 or the whole thing forgotten altogether. The clients can ask the person more specific questions themselves about the nativeness of their language -- such as: when did you start speaking that language, how long have you been living in the country where it is spoken?. I think this makes sense. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 23:00
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Michele Fauble wrote:
Maybe we should all just start claiming that we are also native in our source languages.
That is what I had been trying to put across all along. It would be really unusal for translators to be native in one language, as translators are people who span two or more languages.
Most translators would be native in two languages, a few in more than two.
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| false interpretation of Michelle's quote | Aug 6, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Michele Fauble wrote:
Maybe we should all just start claiming that we are also native in our source languages.
That is what I had been trying to put across all along. It would be really unusal for translators to be native in one language, as translators are people who span two or more languages. Most translators would be native in two languages, a few in more than two.
What are you trying to do? Use a phrase out of context to suit your own purpose?
A simple re-read of page 80 will show how you used a quote completely out of context or that you simply don't understand what Michelle meant.
Besides, anyone can claim any language(s) as his/her native language(s). And many do so falsely. That's why the majority of true native speakers want these claims to be verified.
Did you at all read pages 81-92????
Your wrong interpretation of Michelle's quote and disregard of recent comments does not help us at all in trying to stop false native language claims.
B
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 23:00
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | More likely years from 0 to 15 | Aug 6, 2012 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
To be a native speaker of something can not be evaluated by any birth certificate. What counts are the years between 10 and 20, when your brains are being wired. Forget about your national pride, we are linguists.
Most language scientists accept that it is the initial years that are crucial - from birth to puberty (15). Any languages you are exposed to during this period have a good chance of being picked up at a "native" level.
Languages learnt after 15 years, are learned through a different process, as a second language.
But, I am of the view that it is not nativity in a language that is of crucial importance to translation, but proficiency in the target language plus a host of other factors like experience, familiarity with the subject, education, specialization in an area, and level of knowledge of the source language.
I think it will be more productive if we concentrate on the proficiency part rather than on its false proxy - nativity. Nativity alone cannot assure quality of translation. People who advocate it do so mostly with an axe to grind.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 23:00
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Charlie Bavington wrote:
It's writing what counts. It's writing that triggered the topic. Sure, other attributes or factors might indicate that written output is likely to be of the required standard, but doesn't guarsntee it. Why not just test the thing we're actually interested in?
That is indeed so, but in the last few posts we seem to have digressed into verifying accents. We should get our focus back on writing.
Focusing on accent is a clever ploy to hide the relative irrelevance of nativity to the issue of quality of the translated output.
Translators work with a subset of language - the written, standard version of language, which is much shorn of cultural baggages and variations, and is therefore relatively easier for people to learn and perfect.
A non-native may never acquire the polished accent of a native, but he/she can in many cases acquire high levels of proficiency in the language, which is sufficient for translation purposes.
So we need to abandon the diversion to testing accents and vocal ability and return to the main issue of translation quality.
| | | | | Yes, the proof is in the writing | Aug 6, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
It's writing what counts. It's writing that triggered the topic. Sure, other attributes or factors might indicate that written output is likely to be of the required standard, but doesn't guarsntee it. Why not just test the thing we're actually interested in?
That is indeed so, but in the last few posts we seem to have digressed into verifying accents. We should get our focus back on writing. Focusing on accent is a clever ploy to hide the relative irrelevance of nativity to the issue of quality of the translated output. Translators work with a subset of language - the written, standard version of language, which is much shorn of cultural baggages and variations, and is therefore relatively easier for people to learn and perfect. A non-native may never acquire the polished accent of a native, but he/she can in many cases acquire high levels of proficiency in the language, which is sufficient for translation purposes. So we need to abandon the diversion to testing accents and vocal ability and return to the main issue of translation quality.
It's the surest way to detect "nativity". It's hard to make claims of being a native speaker when the written word screams otherwise. And translation is all about writing afaik.
[Edited at 2012-08-06 06:59 GMT]
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| ♫ Identification by native speaker is music to my ears | Aug 6, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
...
♫ Identification (b)
Leaving aside aspects of "competency", this seems the only way which isn't self-assessed, which would be harder to lie your way out of. If you can convince a panel of native-speakers, made up of say 3/4 people that you are a native speaker then...sorted.
Q: Would a minority of non-native speakers still pass through?
A: Of course they would, but if they are so convincing as to pass through a handful of native speakers undetected then they deserve it.
I'm with you on "native language identification by verified native speakers".
Not gonna rule out "competence" (I'm thinking here of external competence more than of internal) otherwise any native speaker could be on that panel and any native speaker of let's say age 5 or 6 will pass the test. As I said before, when we want to check native language, we do expect a certain level of education as well since this is a place for translators and interpreters. But you know what I mean.
We will have to work on suggestions on how to put together panels for all languages or who will be able to be a judge. And we need to make suggestions about what the test will look like.
Ty Kendall wrote:
Of course, there is the argument we should be assessing writing, if anything, which is true for translators writing is all that matters, so maybe it could be the same set-up as above only your writing has to pass through a panel of native-speakers - this would also eliminate any accusations of bias due to accent, dialect etc, so this would appear to be the better option. The spoken test could always be used as a back-up for people who appeal or feel that their writing was unfairly judged or somesuch.
Yes. As an additional suggestion, I would give anybody a choice of either verifying by chatting with native speakers (online via video or chat room, in person at a powwow, or through a written/typed chat) because it's the chat situation that will always expose a non-native speaker. But I am very open to having that as an additional option as you suggested.
Ty Kendall wrote:
This doesn't seem to me to be something that would be impossible, or even improbable to implement, it's based on a nice solid foundation of linguistic research and the only people who would block such a move are the very liars this thread is about and who have a very good reason to object over anything and everything which might expose them.
I agree it's not impossible. Native speakers usually know for sure by either speaking to someone or reading his/her writing if they are native speakers or not.
Since many refuse to be judged by peers they don't know anything about, a specific "evaluation" situation seems to be unavoidable, but, as an option, I could see someone getting verified by simply evaluating his/her comments in a forum of the language they claim as a native language. (Might have to specify the amount of words needed for such evaluation). It could be an option. If a panel would go through this thread and evaluate everyone who claims English as their native language, we probably pick out the natives and the non-natives. The judges would have to have been already verified in the claimants' particular version of English.
As far as different versions of English are concerned, I do think it could be added to the "verification certification" for clarification but I'm open to any arguments there as well. It just seems that there are some larger discrepancies between certain versions, especially with English.
As far as essays are concerned that claimants could be asked to write, they don't put the applicant into this "immediate" response situation that exists in a conversation or, to a lesser degree, a forum here, but it's the most logical direction we should be headed with our suggestions for verification.
I believe it's doable. We just have to keep making more detailed suggestions.
What we should not forget is that we want to "only" check how (= idiomatic usage, syntax, vocab) and, to a certain degree, how well (basic grammatical structure) the applicant uses the language.
B
[Edited at 2012-08-06 06:53 GMT]
| | | | | utterly futile I am afraid | Aug 6, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
I think it will be more productive if we concentrate on the proficiency part rather than on its false proxy - nativity. Nativity alone cannot assure quality of translation. People who advocate it do so mostly with an axe to grind.
This point has been discussed at length. Nobody here claims that "nativity alone can ensure quality of translation."
You should go back to page 1 and see that we are discussing the verification of "native language claims".
Your statement "people who advocate it (nativity - as you call it) do so mostly with an axe to grind" is absurd. There is nothing selfish about the request to verify false nativity language claims.
It would rather seem that those refusing to verify their claims have a specific agenda.
If you don't agree with the majority of posters here now on page 92, I must assume you never will. And trying to convince us now is utterly futile (as the BORG would say).
B
[Edited at 2012-08-06 07:03 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 23:00
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | The case of international languages like English has come up in this discussion | Aug 6, 2012 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
I noticed this thread yesterday, when it had grown already to 85 pages!
I believe this problem is specific to English. It feels like that English speakers are feeling threatened by the vast amount of people who are not born natives but are competing with them on the translation market. Other languages do not have this problem.
Don't you think it has to be left to the market who is a good translator and who not? Making non-native mistakes in a translation is less serious than claiming to be a medical translator and make potentially life-threatening mistakes in your work.
You raise a very good point here. International languages like English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, etc. are special cases.
These languages have spread far beyond their territories and are used extensively in international business, governance, higher education, entertainment and the media. Facilities for acquiring very high levels of proficiency in these languages exist in many places where these languages are not spoken as a native language. In the case of English, countries (or territories) like India, Hong Kong, Singapore, Philippines, West Indies, etc, come to mind). In many of these places it is possible to have your entire schooling from kintergarten to PhD levels in English, and it is also possible to interact with people (including peers, teachers and neighbours) who speak English very well.
The same would be true for the other international languages too.
Many people in these countries and territories become very proficient in English (and other international languages). In the case of English, India has the third largest publishing industry in English in the world after the US and the UK. Yet, by no stretch of imagination can India be labelled as a country where English is spoken at a native level. But that does not mean that there are no Indians who use English proficiently.
So there is a lot of truth in your comment about people in the traditional English speaking areas feeling threatened by English professionals from these non-English speaking areas of the world.
A solution would be to keep out these international languages from the purview of "nativity" and restrict the nativity issue only to those languages who have not traveled beyond their natural boundaries in historical times.
But that won't be a lasting solution, because most parts of the world are integrating and with global technologies like the Internet and tv, it is possible to get exposure to most languages wherever you are.
European countries, which have been monolingual in recent times can be expected to turn multi-lingual like India if the current political experiments in forming the European Undion there succeed. Europe is integrating politically and economically and dissolving its boundaries and making free movement of people within it possible. With people, languages also move and mix.
And very soon, there would be no large language left in the world that is not used outside its traditional boundaries.
We need to move with the times and rise above our selfish interests.
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