| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Who selects payment method/terms? Wrong paradigm on Proz job posting Thread poster: José Henrique Lamensdorf
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| I'm not bothered | Oct 4, 2008 |
Uldis Liepkalns wrote: the situation will become even worse- just today I got to know about http://translate.google.com/translate_t# It translates directly from almost any to any language (without first translating it to English as a mediatory), I tested it with general texts in many languages- the results were better than I would have believed possible just yesterday- say, in a 100 word text Swedish, Finnish, Estonian, Lithuanian, German into Latvian- in average one word was not recognized, the rest was fully understandable, just grammar needed to be somewhat corrected.
I just threw a few paragraphs of the Swedish analysis that I'm currently trying to write into this fantastic machine. Some of the result:
"Age of respondents was very smooth, but with a slight overweight in the two age groups 31 - 40 and 41 - 50. It was even more pronounced obesity in terms of gender balance"
I think the persons who kindly offered to respond to our survey might be somewhat annoyed by the insinuation that they have an obesity problem.
If this is the best this system can do with a few not very specialised terms/expressions, I'm not bothered.
| | | | | Some clarification | Oct 5, 2008 |
Kemal Mustajbegovic wrote:
I do not need to bid on advertised jobs postings, simple reason being – I am lucky (?) or – better way to put it – I am contacted for a job. And, when an agency contacts me with a job offer I have the freedom to play the game by my rules.
Most of us do, Kemal. The clients find us through our web sites, referrals, whatever and ask us if we can do it and, if so, how much we'll charge to do it. Each professional chooses how they will invest in this kind of promotion of their services, SEO etc.. These are e-scattered shops everywhere on the web. Proz is a behemoth of a virtual "translation mall", where rent is standardized in a few levels, free included, so there are many street vendors all over the parking lot.
The issue here is why in this Proz translation mall the rules have been reversed.
FarkasAndras wrote:
Job posters have every right to impose conditions. You can turn them down.
You also have every right to impose conditions. They can turn them down.
Of course! The point is that Proz has reversed the "normal" standard of doing business.
Which situation seems more "normal"? You walk into a store and ask...
a) How much is the whatchamacallit?, or
b) Would you sell me a whatchamacallit for $ 10?
FarkasAndras wrote:
This is not a matter of principle in my eyes, just let the market sort it out.
The market has already sorted it out since commerce began some centuries ago. That's why I said Proz was going against the grain.
FarkasAndras wrote:
Nothing stops you from responding to a posting and stating that you will only do the job under certain conditions. If they choose an inferior translator just because he/she is willing to take payment 90 days after the invoice in 10c coins mailed in a wooden crate, their loss. You move on to reasonable clients.
Assuming these conditions are far away from normal translation market practices, this is why I mentioned that some people call this venue Amateurz. A professional is willing to hire equally professional work. An amateur will happily live with the services of a peer amateur, as long as it's CHEAP!
FarkasAndras wrote:
Also, nothing stops you from setting up a website of your own, advertising your services with any number of terms and conditions you see fit.
I guess this should be covered in Proz's mission statement: to offer a one-stop-shop to all kinds of translation around the world. Of course I have my own web site, like probably most Prozians, but for prospects to wade through non-standardized information via Google in order to find a suitable vendor is a lot of work.
dgmaga wrote:
If a restaurant does not take any credit cards... [snip] but only we can pay with credit card.
The restaurant owner can decide to take those ten customers or not.
From my experience, you don't get set up with a credit card so quickly.
One European agency was used to Moneybookers and Euro cheques. It took them two weeks (afer the agreed payment date) to get set with PayPal to pay me.
An American agency has a house policy of only paying via checks ot wire transfers; no exceptions ever. They really want me to work for them, but each of these payments costs me USD 80 in fees per transaction in Brazil. So, sometimes it's impossible.
dgmaga wrote:
As translators, what prevents us from stipulating our own terms and refusing to work with customers who don't accept those terms?
Absolutely nothing. That's why I proposed this as a suggestion for improving Proz as a whole.
dgmaga wrote:
But still, if somebody wants to put in their profile their preferred terms of payment, that should be allowed to do so of course.
Yes, I could even mention my undershorts size there, but it's not a selection criteria.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
It is because, in the general translation market as a whole, there are many suppliers (translators) and relatively fewer buyers (in this instance, agencies). If one particular supplier is not happy with the terms, the buyer can be reasonably confident of finding one who WILL accept them.
Your assertion would be hard to prove with statistics. In some language pairs, and especially in some specific subjects, there is a shortage of qualified translators. For general stuff in "popular" pairs, the local Yellow Pages will find a suitable translator just around the corner.
My point is that Proz assumes there is an overabundance of translators for anything, anywhere, so let the buyers use reverse auctions here until they get someone who will actually pay for the privilege of translating anything. This may be fun, but it's not professional at all.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
It's not just about who is the buyer and who is the seller, it is about who needs whom the most, and which side is most easily replaced.
Of course, the answer for us, as individuals, is to make ourselves the ones who cannot easily be replaced, to shift the balance of power, and I think this is best achieved by specialising and being excellent. When the buyer needs YOU, and is going to struggle to run his/her business without YOU, then YOU get to set the terms. If there are 5,000 other people who can do what you do....
You are definitely right. But why should Proz deliberately try to force the issue that translators are a dime a dozen, easily replaceable, while clients who have specific needs are irreplaceable?
Just consider this: Who are the paying members of Proz that keep it in business? It's clearly a bad strategy to boldly favor the other party in the negotiations. When translators eventually realize this, they'll gradually move from paying members to free users, if all the actual benefit they get from Proz is some exposure, instead of worthwhile professional contacts.
| | | | | Free market - or is it? | Oct 5, 2008 |
I understand the point of view of those who believe that it's a free market and that we are allowed to turn down "offers" we are not satisfied with. However, what these people don't seem to understand is that there has been a huuuuge tendency in the past few months for new users to come to this forum and post threads asking how to make money in translation, in a blunt manner, not even trying to hide the fact that they have insufficient knowledge of the languages they translate from/into ("I don'... See more I understand the point of view of those who believe that it's a free market and that we are allowed to turn down "offers" we are not satisfied with. However, what these people don't seem to understand is that there has been a huuuuge tendency in the past few months for new users to come to this forum and post threads asking how to make money in translation, in a blunt manner, not even trying to hide the fact that they have insufficient knowledge of the languages they translate from/into ("I don't care about grammar" is a gem I saw here recently), the fact that they couldn't care less about professionalism and quality and that they pick specializations based on how much it pays and not based on their abilities. Sure, if they are able to churn out 12000 words per day with the help of their trusted machine translation friend, they can afford to charge three cents per word and wait 90 days for the money - and maybe even get away with murder. Freelance translation has become the new get-rich-quick-on-the-Web scheme. Why is that?
Of course, seeing the job posts, one can only agree with those using machine translation, not proofreading their work, not checking their terms, etc. - it occurs to me that with the current "standard" conditions, it really is all a freelancer can afford to do at this rate...
Those who are new to this business - serious professionals and amateurs who want to make a quick buck alike - are seeing these "offers" and conclude that this is the standard. Who's to blame? Who is enforcing this job posting/quoting procedure?
ProZ has the power to do something about this. Yet, when I take notice of rules that stipulate that if you don't agree with the terms stipulated in an "offer", you are not allowed to quote on it with rates/deadlines/payment terms that are any different from what was already in the job posting (unless, of course, you are willing to go even lower - surprise, surprise!), I don't see any will to do anything for freelancers.
It does make you wonder why pay for a platinum membership. It doesn't, however, make you wonder for even a split second why so many of our truly professional and recognized colleagues have reverted to a free membership or left the site altogether.
Meanwhile, the number of ProZ mail messages I get asking me to translate documents at a quarter of my lowest rate has doubled compared to the corresponding period last year... Is that worth paying for?
[Edited at 2008-10-05 09:03] ▲ Collapse
| | | | USER0059 (X) 
Finland
Local time: 00:21
English to Finnish
+ ...
| In total agreement with the original poster | Oct 5, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Every business selling anything in the world states up front the payment methods they accept.
Meanwhile job posting on Proz goes head on against the grain. Go to http://www.proz.com/post-translation-job , scroll down to Payment Information, and you'll see that the second item leaves it up to the buyer the choice of how and when they want to pay.
[T]he proper way to handle this would be the service provider, viz. the translator, to state on their profile how and when they expect to be paid for their work.
So, for instance, an ousourcer willing to pay 3¢/word two months after delivery would be prevented from bothering a translator who charges (like any business in the world - Proz included as shown above) 10¢/word, payable in two weeks.
I share this view fully. The above should be self-evident, but ProZ tends to be somewhat bizarre in respect to things such as this.
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Jason Kim
South Korea
Member (2007)
English to Korean
I have been a proz.com paying member for more than a year now. After becoming a paying member, I was contacted by several agency clients for jobs and some of them became my regular clients. I have never been successful in bidding for posted jobs and I don't bother with them anymore. I believe proz.com exposure helps one get decent clients because they take time to find you.
I also realized that the proz.com community consists of different members. There are pure translators, transla... See more I have been a proz.com paying member for more than a year now. After becoming a paying member, I was contacted by several agency clients for jobs and some of them became my regular clients. I have never been successful in bidding for posted jobs and I don't bother with them anymore. I believe proz.com exposure helps one get decent clients because they take time to find you.
I also realized that the proz.com community consists of different members. There are pure translators, translator-and-outsourcers, translator-turned-outsourcers, and outsourcers (agencies & end clients). I think each of these paying/non-paying members may not share the same interest when it comes to business. And I also understand proz.com is a business entity seeking profits, so they will do anything to support translators as long as it doesn't hurt their business. I have no complaint about that.
After I became a paying member of proz.com, I also subscribed to a Europe-based translation community, paying more than what I pay proz.com. Because there were neither decent jobs/clients offered through that site nor a passionate, caring member community, I removed my profile altogether, even before my membership expired, with no regret.
I believe there are more than just job posts in the proz.com community. When I see good, caring translators complain about deteriorating trends in proz.com and translation industry that adversely affect translators and their business, I feel sorry because I know they care about this community but there are not much proz.com can do about it, as it's business.
[Edited at 2008-10-05 11:56] ▲ Collapse
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Ah, sorry, I thought your original point was a real "I don't understand" which required an explanation of the economics. Which surprised me, coming from a smart fellow like you!
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
My point is that Proz assumes there is an overabundance of translators for anything, anywhere, so let the buyers use reverse auctions here
....
You are definitely right. But why should Proz deliberately try to force the issue that translators are a dime a dozen, easily replaceable, while clients who have specific needs are irreplaceable?
Just consider this: Who are the paying members of Proz that keep it in business? It's clearly a bad strategy to boldly favor the other party in the negotiations. When translators eventually realize this, they'll gradually move from paying members to free users, if all the actual benefit they get from Proz is some exposure, instead of worthwhile professional contacts.
What you were clearly really asking (at the risk of putting words into your mouth) was "why does Proz encourage and indulge this practice?".
In which case, I agree entirely with the question and the arguments against the current state of affairs on the site.
If I were cycnical, I would say that it is because Proz is not interested in translators who are professional specialists* in a particular field and who can, therefore, name their own terms because the balance of power in the relationship is with them, and Proz IS interested in the (revenue generated by the) mass of general average translators who clamour in their dozens after any job going.
(*Note that this new "PRO" campaign requires paid membership and, as has been pointed out endless times on here, many professional translators do not need the (current) benefits of membership here.)
Cynicism aside, I agree with you. Remove the fields that encourage posters to state a price, and let normal negotiation be the result, whichever side it may be that holds the power for any given job.
Since it is most definitely true that the market is not the same for some bog standard French->English tourism bumph about hotels near the Eiffel tower and a complex text about tractor gearboxes from Italian to Latvian.
Hence it should also be true that the process for organising such translations is not the same, and that any website that claims to cater for all should be flexible enough to do so.
| | | | | What the rule says | Oct 5, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
ProZ has the power to do something about this. Yet, when I take notice of rules that stipulate that if you don't agree with the terms stipulated in an "offer", you are not allowed to quote on it with rates/deadlines/payment terms that are any different from what was already in the job posting (unless, of course, you are willing to go even lower - surprise, surprise!), I don't see any will to do anything for freelancers.
Hi Viktoria,
Rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/jobs_answ/2.1#2.1 states
Responses to job postings should be based upon interest in the work. Contacting a job poster (by using the quoting form or contacting directly) to make commentary on the posting without having any interest in completing the job, is prohibited.
The rule does not say that "you are not allowed to quote on it with rates/deadlines/payment terms that are any different from what was already in the job posting (unless, of course, you are willing to go even lower".
What the rule does not allow are comments that are not offers. If you have interest in the work you can present your own offer, on your own terms.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 23:21
English to German
+ ...
| Specs *proposed* by job posters need to be labelled as such | Oct 5, 2008 |
Thanks to Enrique for explaining the rule. In fact, I would strongly recommend to stick to your own terms.
Having said that, the specifications proposed by job posters should be marked as such - as proposals. This has been suggested by moderators on several occasions, with no concrete response by ProZ.com staff so far.
Best regards,
Ralf
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| You hit the spot, Enrique | Oct 5, 2008 |
Enrique wrote: Rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/jobs_answ/2.1#2.1 states Responses to job postings should be based upon interest in the work. Contacting a job poster (by using the quoting form or contacting directly) to make commentary on the posting without having any interest in completing the job, is prohibited.
The rule does not say that "you are not allowed to quote on it with rates/deadlines/payment terms that are any different from what was already in the job posting (unless, of course, you are willing to go even lower". What the rule does not allow are comments that are not offers. If you have interest in the work you can present your own offer, on your own terms.
That's the very point of it. Here on Proz the first one to talk about prices is the buyer, and not the seller.
Transposing this procedure to, e.g. retail stores, it would mean that products on display wouldn't have price tags; prospects would be invited to stick Post-It notes on them with their offers and a phone number or e-mail. Not even science fiction has gone there yet!
Bear in mind that any negotiation needs a baseline to get started. Normally the seller sets it first... but not on Proz. This is the whole issue here.
Considering that posting jobs on Proz is free, while membership is not, it would be businesswise sensible for it to act as a venue for professional translators to find adequately paid jobs, instead of - as it is now - offering greedy outsourcers a way to hire labor as cheap as they'd like it to be.
Please note that I'm not labeling all outsourcers as greedy, but such an enticing inivitation to those who really are, tends to make them outnumber the bona fide ones. The corollary is that professional translators will tend to consider Proz as just one more window to get exposure, but not a shop for doing business, as shown on some inputs in this thread.
| | | | | A better compromise | Oct 5, 2008 |
Ralf Lemster wrote:
... the specifications proposed by job posters should be marked as such - as proposals. This has been suggested by moderators on several occasions, with no concrete response by ProZ.com staff so far.
I think this option would work best for me, although it is essentially the same as what we have now. I have never felt obliged to follow any rate proposals from outsourcers, but given that my time is limited, knowing where the other party's expectations are at the outset can influence my response or lack thereof. It may be important information to use in formulating my quotation. If I am completely unable to distinguish a client with possible expectations of 5 cents a word from one who may accept 25 cents, then I will waste more of my time writing proposals than I care to think about. I do write serious proposals to the 5-centers once in a while if the topic itself is of great interest or I am simply in a mood to play, but I'll be damned if I can do this every day or even every two weeks.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Here on ProZ.com the first one to talk about prices is the buyer, and not the seller.
True in most cases, but do you really have the time or desire to slog through a much larger volume of job postings to identify those which are possibly worth taking seriously? A part of me likes this idea very much, but given how utterly clueless many people are when it comes to setting rates or how some very competent colleagues have issues with business sense or self esteem that get in the way of their demanding a proper level of compensation, that I truly doubt whether the ultimate price level of the job would be affected. We do get job postings without proposed rates now - presumably from outsourcers who prefer to work according to the principle of the seller talking about price first. I don't see anything better or worse about this approach per se, but I think I can screen out the bottom feeders faster if they post a proposed rate. The fact that there may be plenty of suckers willing to bite at that rate doesn't trouble me in the least.
I suppose I could test this and do a little sociology experiment by running an ad with a proposed price and another without a proposed price and seeing what the responses ranges are, then reporting the results. However, I find the administrative overhead of outsourcing to be an incredible nuisance, and I would feel a bit uncomfortable using my colleagues as guinea pigs to prove a point even if the two postings are serious jobs.
[Edited at 2008-10-05 17:24]
| | | | | That's it, boy! | Oct 5, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Considering that posting jobs on Proz is free, while membership is not, it would be businesswise sensible for it to act as a venue for professional translators to find adequately paid jobs, instead of - as it is now - offering greedy outsourcers a way to hire labor as cheap as they'd like it to be.
That's the point. C'mon, Proz.com staff, see the flaw! We, payers, are raising our voices. Please hear.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 23:21
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| No, the seller only suggests | Oct 5, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: Go to http://www.proz.com/post-translation-job , scroll down to Payment Information, and you'll see that the second item leaves it up to the buyer the choice of how and when they want to pay.
The buyer merely indicates his preferred method of payment. It is still entirely up to the bidder to decide if he accepts or rejects it.
I think the difference between the ProZ.com case and the restaurant is who approaches whom first. In both cases, one of the parties make their wish known before the other party decides whether they foresee a successful business relationship.
In the restaurant case, the seller is static and his customers are dynamic. In the ProZ.com case, it is the buyer who is static -- translators approach him, not the other way round.
What you're dreaming of is a ProZ.com in which translators do not bid on jobs, but in which clients bid on translators.
So the proper way to handle this would be the service provider, viz. the translator, to state on their profile how and when they expect to be paid for their work.
If method of payment is a non-negotiable for you, perhaps you should ask ProZ.com to enable job notification filtering based on payment method, so that you see only clients who offer you your preferred payment terms.
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| Howz about a slave auction? | Oct 5, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
What you're dreaming of is a ProZ.com in which translators do not bid on jobs, but in which clients bid on translators.
Where is FG when you need him? I have a dream 
Here's a fun, silly idea: a translator posts a certain quantity of capacity, perhaps an ideal job specifying format, subject area and turnaround time and invites outsourcers to bid on that capacity with a certain minimum. I remember this sort of thing from fundraisers when I was a kid, and they were indeed called slave auctions. (Yes, some Americans just can't let go of their awful Dixie nostalgia!)
Let's see... it could work something like this: I promise to translate some basic contract material from German to English, up to 3000 words in the source, original format MS Word (no OCR conversions). Turnaround 72 hours from close of bidding. Starting bid: XX cents per word, with raises in increments of 0.10 cents per word. Go for it people, I even come with my own leather collar and nose ring....
| | | | | A few details | Oct 5, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
The buyer merely indicates his preferred method of payment. It is still entirely up to the bidder to decide if he accepts or rejects it.
That's not so easy, governments play a role there, too. I can only tell about Brazil:
- A foreign check or an international wire transfer here incur in a USD 80 fee per transaction, regardless of amount, determined by the Central Bank of Brazil. Checks take 30-60 days to clear.
- PayPal is workable to Brazil only via Xoom. (However Xoom only serves some 30+ countries. What about the others?)
Samuel Murray wrote:
In the restaurant case, the seller is static and his customers are dynamic. In the ProZ.com case, it is the buyer who is static -- translators approach him, not the other way round.
Whoa! Hold your horses! The only reason for a translator to work as such is because someone has a translation job. This is the triggering event. Weren't it for the Babel Tower, nobody would ever need a translator in this world (maybe only in outer space, Klingons...)
So the buyer approaches the sellers. They can search the web for a translator that serves the pair they need and approach them, or they can post a job on Proz and wait for some response from qualified translators. If they cannot find a suitable translator, their job will remain undone... just as someone who can't find a restaurant will remain hungry.
Samuel Murray wrote:
What you're dreaming of is a ProZ.com in which translators do not bid on jobs, but in which clients bid on translators.
I'm not dreaming, I'm just pointing out the usual buy-and-sell practice I've seen everywhere - but Proz - for a few decades already.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
So the proper way to handle this would be the service provider, viz. the translator, to state on their profile how and when they expect to be paid for their work.
Samuel Murray wrote:
If method of payment is a non-negotiable for you, perhaps you should ask ProZ.com to enable job notification filtering based on payment method, so that you see only clients who offer you your preferred payment terms.
As a matter of fact, I accept five different (international) options. The outscourcer has to find just one that we have in common. Computer systems are good in matching these things.
Payment terms are also to be considered. Take your car to the mechanic, and ask him if you can pay for the repair 60 days after the present month ends. You'll be riding buses for a long time! Why do translators have to be so much more "generous" or "lenient" than any other species of service providers?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 23:21
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Some more comments | Oct 5, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
The buyer merely indicates his preferred method of payment. It is still entirely up to the bidder to decide if he accepts or rejects it. - A foreign check or an international wire transfer here incur in a USD 80 fee per transaction...
I don't see how your reply relates to my comment. My statement was that if a potential client offers a payment method that you dislike, then it is up to you to decide (before accepting the job, obviously) if you are willing to accept it.
Samuel Murray wrote:
In the restaurant case, the seller is static and his customers are dynamic. In the ProZ.com case, it is the buyer who is static -- translators approach him, not the other way round. Whoa! Hold your horses! The only reason for a translator to work as such is because someone has a translation job. This is the triggering event. ... So the buyer approaches the sellers.
Not true. Clients post a job and then they sit back and wait for translators to approach them. The buyers do not, as you say, approach the sellers -- in contrast, the sellers approach the buyer (after having been informed by ProZ.com that there is a buyer).
A system in which buyers approach the sellers might work like this: The client posts a job on ProZ.com, and then ProZ.com sends the buyer a list of profiles that best match his job posting. He then investigates (visits profiles etc) and approaches the translator of his choice. In fact, if you think this is a good idea, you might want to suggest it to Staff. It would certainly have advantages for both client and translator.
Payment terms are also to be considered. Take your car to the mechanic, and ask him if you can pay for the repair 60 days after the present month ends. You'll be riding buses for a long time!
I'm not fond of comparing translation to plumbing or mechanicing or any other type of job, but since you started it...
As it happens, I used to make use of a freelance mechanic who was very good and who charged no interest for payments that were up to 30 days late. I also sometimes take my car to another mechanic who will not hand me my keys until I paid him. I suspect that if I were a business client (not a private client), even the latter mechanic would be willing to accept delayed payment.
Some people here have also used laywers and doctors as comparison occupations. Well, I rarely pay for medical expenses on the same day that the medical treatment took place (I often pay much later, after I've been sent an invoice and a reminder). And we often read in the newspapers about how someone owes a lawyer legal fees -- so obviously there is often no payment upfront for legal services either.
[Edited at 2008-10-05 18:09]
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