| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | How about to establish a kind of arbitration for translation quality? Thread poster: Angie Garbarino
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Angie Garbarino 
Local time: 00:52
Member (2003)
French to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER
Tatty wrote:
I don't think I have read anything so scary for ages
Scary for who? For malicious agencies or for incompetent proofreaders/translators.
As for me, I will feel better when accepting a job from a new client if I know I am protected by proz.'s competent colleagues.
[Edited at 2008-09-01 14:38]
| | | | | Pressure group? | Sep 1, 2008 |
Tatty wrote:
I don't think I have read anything so scary for ages. At best, it is a crazy idea. The blind leading the blind comes to mind; the result would lack authority. However it is true that if the monitorium process fails, pursing any monies owed through the courts would probably turn out to be very expensive indeed.
I think it is much better for Proz to remain as a pressure group, as it were.
| | | | Peter Linton (X)
Local time: 23:52
Swedish to English
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| Arbitration schemes already exist | Sep 1, 2008 |
Many translator organisations already provide such arbitration services in their own countries. It is hard to see how ProZ could improve on that, particularly as ProZ is international and not so familiar with the legal and commercial background in individual countries.
These national organisations also have much stricter rules of admission than ProZ. That gives the the arbitrators greater authority than for example, a ProZ leader selected by another ProZ person. Who arbitrates amon... See more Many translator organisations already provide such arbitration services in their own countries. It is hard to see how ProZ could improve on that, particularly as ProZ is international and not so familiar with the legal and commercial background in individual countries.
These national organisations also have much stricter rules of admission than ProZ. That gives the the arbitrators greater authority than for example, a ProZ leader selected by another ProZ person. Who arbitrates among the arbitrators?
Sounds a nice idea, but for ProZ a poisoned chalice, something best avoided. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Take this poisoned cup.... | Sep 1, 2008 |
Peter Linton wrote:
Many translator organisations already provide such arbitration services... national organisations also have much stricter rules of admission than ProZ. That gives the the arbitrators greater authority than for example...
Sounds a nice idea, but for ProZ a poisoned chalice, something best avoided.
Good point. With respect to such arbitration services, are you aware of any collection of contact information for the arbitration services of various organizations (ITI, ATA, etc.)? Might be a useful resource page to put up somewhere, perhaps as an article on dispute resolution if it doesn't fit anywhere else. It would be useful to know if these organizations are available for cross-border problem resolution, disputes involving non-members, etc.
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gianfranco
Brazil
Local time: 19:52
Member (2001)
English to Italian
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| ProZ.com can do it for its own members | Sep 1, 2008 |
It is possible that some professional associations have a similar mechanism to solve disputes, or to help their members, but ProZ.com could very well design an arbitration system to help its members.
Two ProZ.com members could not be members of the same association, and not even operating in the same country, and their only resouce to solve quickly and at a relatively low cost a dispute could be this venue.
I would go even further, and make the acceptance of an arbitration, ... See more It is possible that some professional associations have a similar mechanism to solve disputes, or to help their members, but ProZ.com could very well design an arbitration system to help its members.
Two ProZ.com members could not be members of the same association, and not even operating in the same country, and their only resouce to solve quickly and at a relatively low cost a dispute could be this venue.
I would go even further, and make the acceptance of an arbitration, in case of a dispute, part of the conditions to post a job in ProZ.com or to quote offering translation services through the site.
Gianfranco
[Edited at 2008-09-01 15:57] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Any arbitration services online? useful? cheap? | Sep 1, 2008 |
Peter Linton wrote:
Many translator organisations already provide such arbitration services in their own countries. It is hard to see how ProZ could improve on that, particularly as ProZ is international and not so familiar with the legal and commercial background in individual countries.
These national organisations also have much stricter rules of admission than ProZ. That gives the the arbitrators greater authority than for example, a ProZ leader selected by another ProZ person. Who arbitrates among the arbitrators?
Sounds a nice idea, but for ProZ a poisoned chalice, something best avoided.
Why should have these arbitrators greater authority than for example a ProZ leader? Indeed, in many cases, ProZ leaders are also member of country/international translator/interpreter associations. Or am I wrong?
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In France, the SFT does have a "Commission arbitrage". Either the client or the translator can initiate the process, as long as the translator is a member of the SFT.
Cheers,
Patricia
| | | | JPW (X)
Local time: 23:52
Spanish to English
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| Not sure about arbitration, exactly... | Sep 1, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner writes:
With respect to such arbitration services, are you aware of any collection of contact information for the arbitration services of various organizations (ITI, ATA, etc.)? Might be a useful resource page to put up somewhere, perhaps as an article on dispute resolution if it doesn't fit anywhere else. It would be useful to know if these organizations are available for cross-border problem resolution, disputes involving non-members, etc.
I know that FIT-Europe has embarked on a Europe-wide collation of information on bad/non-payers and specifically how to approach this when the defaulting party is based in another country.
Not quite the same but will surely be of use as it is kind of related, i.e. if you can't get the other party to agree to arbitration then your next step to getting paid may well be via the courts.
And to do that successfully, you need to know the procedure.
It is kown as the BAD PAYERS PROJECT (surprise surprise) and the link is on the left side:
http://www.fit-europe.org/
JPW.
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Angie Garbarino
Local time: 00:52
Member (2003)
French to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER | In their own countries exactly | Sep 1, 2008 |
Peter Linton wrote:
Many translator organisations already provide such arbitration services in their own countries. It is hard to see how ProZ could improve on that, particularly as ProZ is international and not so familiar with the legal and commercial background in individual countries.
These national organisations also have much stricter rules of admission than ProZ. That gives the the arbitrators greater authority than for example, a ProZ leader selected by another ProZ person. Who arbitrates among the arbitrators?
Sounds a nice idea, but for ProZ a poisoned chalice, something best avoided.
But IMHO we do need an international arbitration whithout any legal implications, just an arbitration able to judge the quality of the contested job for trying to solve before contacting lawiers.
I do not need an Italian arbitration for example since the only Italian client I have always trusts me.
Moreover, arbitrators could be choosen by the two involved parties, (also before like Gianfranco suggests) this of course supposing good faith.
Like someone said, arbitration is a common cheaper and fast practise.
[Edited at 2008-09-01 15:56]
| | | | JPW (X)
Local time: 23:52
Spanish to English
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| The point of arbitration - | Sep 1, 2008 |
Angioletta Garbarino writes:
But IMHO we do need an international arbitration whithout any legal implications, just an arbitration able to judge the quality of the contested job for trying to solve before contacting lawiers.
Arbitration without legal implications isn't arbitration at all. The whole point of arbitration is that BOTH PARTIES agree to the appointment of an independent arbitrator and accept his (her) decision as binding (and final), just as you do at court, but without having to go there in the first place.
That's why it's called Alternative Dispute Resolution.
Moreover, arbitrators could [my bold] be choosen by the two involved parties, this of course supposing good faith.
Not could, MUST. If they can't agree on a mutual arbitrator, there's little point in proceeding at all.
| | | | Angie Garbarino
Local time: 00:52
Member (2003)
French to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER | Yes Gianfranco | Sep 1, 2008 |
Gianfranco wrote:
I would go even further, and make the acceptance of an arbitration, in case of a dispute, part of the conditions to post a job in ProZ.com or to quote offering translation services through the site.
This could be the solution, acceptance of a certain arbitrator in case of dispute decided beforehand
[Edited at 2008-09-01 16:02]
| | | | Angie Garbarino
Local time: 00:52
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Ok John Paul "binding" | Sep 1, 2008 |
What I meant by saying "no legal implications" just means "without lawier or court" sorry if I was not clear, and correct MUST not could (the conditional just derives from the fact that we are talking about a possibility), sorry again if I was not clear.
You are right:
The whole point of arbitration is that BOTH PARTIES agree to the appointment of an independent arbitrator and accept his (her) decision as binding (and final) ,
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| Why unenforceable? | Sep 1, 2008 |
Many countries, U.S. included, enforce awards granted by arbitration panels. Often, the prevailing party may file the award in any court having jurisdiction on the losing party. If the arbitration guaranteed due process, the court will likely enforce the award, without looking at the basis for the dispute. And the courts need to intervene only if the losing party did not comply with the requirements of the arbitrators.
I have seen many contracts where the parties adopt arbitration a... See more Many countries, U.S. included, enforce awards granted by arbitration panels. Often, the prevailing party may file the award in any court having jurisdiction on the losing party. If the arbitration guaranteed due process, the court will likely enforce the award, without looking at the basis for the dispute. And the courts need to intervene only if the losing party did not comply with the requirements of the arbitrators.
I have seen many contracts where the parties adopt arbitration as their exclusive method for dispute resolution. Often, in those contracts, the parties waive any rights to go to court. The arbitration is final.
The fact that ProZ is an international organization is a plus. Many international contracts provide for arbitration precisely because tha parties come from different nations with different laws They elect the laws that are applicable to the contract; they elect the procedural rules to solve the dispute.
As to the procedural rules controlling the arbitration proceedings, I have seen contracts that adopt the corresponding rules from the International Chamber of Commerce; other set their own rules.
As to the panel of arbitrators, often one of the parties select one, the other party, the second, and the two arbitrators select the third. Of course, those arbitrators must have the proper expertise and impartiality, and the procedural rules must guarantee due process.
One thing though, it is a common misconception to believe that arbitration is cheap.
Luis ▲ Collapse
| | | | Peter Linton (X)
Local time: 23:52
Swedish to English
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| Arbitration services | Sep 1, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
With respect to such arbitration services, are you aware of any collection of contact information for the arbitration services of various organizations (ITI, ATA, etc.)?
The ITI in the UK merely mentions on its website that it provides an arbitration service for its own members, and gives no further info. Not surprising really -- arbitration sounds like a neat idea, but is a highly sensitive, contentious and even dangerous area in these days when people resort to lawyers at the drop of a hat. All it takes is a letter from a solicitor challenging the authority of the arbitrators, and you are into a minefield of ill-tempered and unresolvable arguments. I know that the UK-based ITI have found it so. A poisoned chalice.
In any case, while translators might be happy to commit to arbitration, I suspect that real customers would not accept the authority of ProZ arbitration by arbitrators selected by ProZ, and if ProZ insisted, would simply go elsewhere for their translation work.
The basic problem is that membership of ProZ it is easier to achieve, and therefore carries less weight and credibility, than membership of other translation associations. This applies not least to ProZ 'leaders' as well, whatever that means. That is simply too weak a basis for being an independent arbitrator. (Please note I speak as a long-standing and happy ProZ member).
| | | | JPW (X)
Local time: 23:52
Spanish to English
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| I am with you, Peter | Sep 1, 2008 |
I think it is a nice idea, noble even, and one proposed with the best of intentions. Unfortunately it seems to be unworkable in practice, for all sorts of reasons.
I can't believe the staff and others involved with the running of this site have not considered it at least once before and dismissed it as not viable.
An arbitrator by his very nature must be 'independent' so anyone with the least association with this site (as member, partial member, corporate member, mode... See more I think it is a nice idea, noble even, and one proposed with the best of intentions. Unfortunately it seems to be unworkable in practice, for all sorts of reasons.
I can't believe the staff and others involved with the running of this site have not considered it at least once before and dismissed it as not viable.
An arbitrator by his very nature must be 'independent' so anyone with the least association with this site (as member, partial member, corporate member, moderator or whatever) would automatically be ruled out. ▲ Collapse
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