| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | 句子第一个词用过去分词 Thread poster: redred
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Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 23:46
Chinese to English
Mm, sorry, that sentence was a bit weird. I can't really give you the sentence I was working on from a job, so I've adapted something from a corpus instead:
张三打李四，其虽然没有土地证...
The question is, what constraints govern the use and understanding of 其? What conditions have to hold for the 其 to refer to 张三? And what conditions would make it refer to 李四? Is it just "context", or are there grammatical rules? prosodic rules? which wholly o... See more Mm, sorry, that sentence was a bit weird. I can't really give you the sentence I was working on from a job, so I've adapted something from a corpus instead:
张三打李四，其虽然没有土地证...
The question is, what constraints govern the use and understanding of 其? What conditions have to hold for the 其 to refer to 张三? And what conditions would make it refer to 李四? Is it just "context", or are there grammatical rules? prosodic rules? which wholly or partially determine what the reference must be?
Someone should write a full grammar of Modern Standard Mandarin, because I'd love to be able to look this stuff up. ▲ Collapse
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 10:46
English to Chinese
+ ...
wherestip wrote: ysun wrote:
建议你上新华书店去买一本好的汉语语法。
Hmm, that makes sense. If anything, it probably really needs to be written by a Chinese author(s) and studied in Chinese. And I would stay away from names like Ng or Yip. Of course I'm not serious.  But let's face it, there is a significant difference between Hong Kong Mandarin(官话) and Chinese standard Mandarin(普通话). 
Steve,
同意你的意见。实际上，如今在网上就能找到中国人编写的汉语语法。我是工科出身，未曾系统深入地学过汉语语法，但也从小学起就在汉语课上陆陆续续地学过一些基本语法。我估计语言专业的学生应会较深入系统地学习汉语语法。
我认为，学一点基本语法还是有必要的，但要避免生搬硬套而造出一些不符合习惯的蹩脚句子。无论学中文还是学英文都是如此。
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 10:46
Chinese to English
+ ...
| I'll take a crack at it | Mar 18, 2013 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Mm, sorry, that sentence was a bit weird. I can't really give you the sentence I was working on from a job, so I've adapted something from a corpus instead:
张三打李四，其虽然没有土地证...
Phil,
I hate to say it, but this is also a poorly constructed Chinese sentence. Anyway, we get the idea - Whom does "其" refer to when two or more people/parties are involved?
I would say it mostly depends on context. For example:
警察给了小李一张罚单，因其开车严重超速。
小张开车撞了老李，因其没有遵守交通规则。 －－ (通常，"其"指小张, because it typically defaults to the active party. 即，老李是无辜被撞的)
"其" is mostly used in 文言文, but could also be seen in legal documents such as litigations, accident reports. It's also commonly seen in patients' medical histories, scientific journals, etc.... stuff that carries a more high-registered literary(or hoity-toity) tone to it. Anyhow, it is typically very obvious whom the pronoun refers to when a sentence is phrased as such. Otherwise I would say the sentence is either flawed or poorly written, and truly needs to be rephrased.
[Edited at 2013-03-19 03:32 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 10:46
English to Chinese
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
张三打李四，其虽然没有土地证...
The question is, what constraints govern the use and understanding of 其? What conditions have to hold for the 其 to refer to 张三? And what conditions would make it refer to 李四? Is it just "context", or are there grammatical rules? prosodic rules? which wholly or partially determine what the reference must be?
“张三打李四，其虽然没有土地证...”也是病句。只有当指代对象很明确时，才可以“其”字作为代词。例如，警察搜查了嫌犯的住处，虽然其并未出示搜查证。这里的“其”字显然是指警察而不是嫌犯。
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ysun
United States
Local time: 10:46
English to Chinese
+ ...
wherestip wrote:
In such circumstances, it is typically very obvious who the pronoun refers to when a sentence is phrased as such. Otherwise I would say the sentence is poorly written, and truly needs to be rephrased.
“警察给了小李一张罚单，因其开车严重超速”也是一个很好的例句。其中的“其”字显然是指“小李”而不是警察。
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 10:46
Chinese to English
+ ...
ysun wrote:
只有当指代对象很明确时，才可以“其”字作为代词。例如，警察搜查了嫌犯的住处，虽然其并未出示搜查证。这里的“其”字显然是指警察而不是嫌犯。
如果使用 "其" 而造成读者对 对象不明确的话，"其"的使用就有问题。
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 10:46
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Bad grammar that sticks in your craw | Mar 18, 2013 |
ysun wrote:
我认为，学一点基本语法还是有必要的，但要避免生搬硬套而造出一些不符合习惯的蹩脚句子。无论学中文还是学英文都是如此。
Indeed. Grammar definitely has its place in culture, society, and everyday life. Without proper attention to grammar, even native speakers could occasionally trip up and make some glaring mistakes.
I was reading this news item early the other morning on CNN's website. The following grammatical error really stuck out as I glanced through the article. It made me do a double take, then another ...
http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/12/news/economy/paul-ryan-budget/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
While Democrats and Republicans have called a truce in their fight over this year's budget, vowing to work to avoid a government shutdown later this month, but they remain sharply divided over broad fiscal policy for 2014 and beyond.
It's doubtful that anyone really cared about the redundant "but" except me. Granted it's not a big deal; IMO it just detracts from the quality and professionalism of a piece of journalism, not to mention - more importantly - from the news itself. Thankfully, the wayward "but" was later edited out. I checked back after a couple of hours, and poof, it was gone.
[Edited at 2013-03-19 14:28 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 10:46
English to Chinese
+ ...
wherestip wrote: It's doubtful that anyone really cared about the redundant "but" but me. Thankfully, the wayward "but" was edited out after a couple of hours.
这个 "but" 确实多余。有些人往往不注意这些细节，在中翻英时也会写出 Although …, but … 的句子。
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Zhoudan
Local time: 23:46
English to Chinese
+ ...
比做文字工作的还认真。
wherestip wrote: It's doubtful that anyone really cared about the redundant "but" except for me. Granted it's not a big deal; IMO it just detracts from the quality and professionalism of a piece of journalism, not to mention - more importantly - from the news itself. Thankfully, the wayward "but" was later edited out. I checked back after a couple of hours, and it was gone. [Edited at 2013-03-19 03:01 GMT]
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 23:46
Chinese to English
ysun wrote:
指代对象必须明确
Making up example sentences is hard
那么，能不能这么说：
一句话，如果“其”的指代对象不是很清楚，那就是病句？
但是，wherestip的例句好像是反例：
小张开车撞了老李，因其没有遵守交通规则。
通常，"其"指小张, because it typically defaults to the active party.
这属于病句吗？我难以判断，根本没有所需语感！
要么，（一）因为”其“不清楚，是病句。
要么，（二）因为"其"的对象可以默认为前一句的主语，这句话还是说的通。
假如是（二）的话，前句为被动语态有什么影响呢？
老李开车被小张撞了，因其没有遵守交通规则。
现在前句的grammatical subject/topic与semantic subject/行动者分开。”其“默认指代哪一个，还是不能这样用？
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 10:46
Chinese to English
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote: 那么，能不能这么说： 一句话，如果“其”的指代对象不是很清楚，那就是病句？ 但是，wherestip的例句好像是反例： 小张开车撞了老李，因其没有遵守交通规则。
通常，"其"指小张, because it typically defaults to the active party.
Phil,
On second thought, perhaps that was not such a good example. What Yueyin said is true, if it creates confusion as to what the pronoun 其 refers to, try avoid using it altogether.
老李开车被小张撞了，因其没有遵守交通规则。
Alternately, one can say 老李因为没有遵守交通规则与小张撞了车。Not only is it clearer and easier to understand, IMO, it's also cleaner and better phrasing.
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 10:46
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Correct Grammar | Mar 19, 2013 |
Zhoudan wrote:
你还真回去看了
比做文字工作的还认真。
Yes, I'm actually quite a stickler for things like this.
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ysun
United States
Local time: 10:46
English to Chinese
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote: ysun wrote:
指代对象必须明确 Making up example sentences is hard 那么，能不能这么说： 一句话，如果“其”的指代对象不是很清楚，那就是病句？
wherestip 在上面也已经说过，"In such circumstances, it is typically very obvious who the pronoun refers to when a sentence is phrased as such. Otherwise I would say the sentence is poorly written, and truly needs to be rephrased."
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 23:46
Chinese to English
| Grammar and good writing | Mar 19, 2013 |
wherestip wrote:
...if it creates confusion as to what the pronoun 其 refers to, try avoid using it altogether.
That's certainly true. But there is a distinction between *good* writing and *grammatical* writing.
Good writing is almost always grammatically correct; but there's a lot of writing that is grammatically fine, but bad in other ways - unclear, inaccurate, inappropriate, whatever.
Now, it might be that 其 is one of the places where grammar and rhetoric coincide, and that there is no test for the grammaticality of 其 other than whether it makes sense. That's quite unusual, and an interesting thing in itself.
As it happens, though, I don't think that is the end of the story with 其. Because your intuition, that 其 more naturally associates with the subject of a sentence, is shared by others. This is from my email exchange with my friend:
Before I replied to your e-mail, I showed the sentence to someone at work who knows her stuff, to test my 其 theory. I didn’t tell her what I was looking for, just asked her to read it. After she read it, I asked what the 其 was, lo and behold, her gut reaction was (the subject/topic of the sentence)
Obviously the specifics of the sentence make a big difference, but in the absence of other deciding factors, "subjectness" may be relevant.
Obviously, my main (professional) interest is in interpreting Chinese sentences, be they right or wrong, rather than in being a good writer of Chinese myself.
[Edited at 2013-03-19 06:31 GMT]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 10:46
Chinese to English
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
As it happens, though, I don't think that is the end of the story with 其. Because your intuition, that 其 more naturally associates with the subject of a sentence, is shared by others.
Phil,
Yes, I guess that is true too. It's also what I meant by defaulting to the active party(which more accurately should have been the subject) when there are no other better indications.
Actually, this could also be gleaned from the responses to your original example. Zhoudan, Shaun, and Yueyin all thought that the dog chasing after the cat and as a result losing its fur was a poorly constructed sentence in every way - grammatically, rhetorically, and logically. One could safely say that the author who intended the description for the cat would have been in a very small minority.
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