| Páginas no tópico: < [1 2 3 4] > | Bad business practices Tópico cartaz: Claudia Alvis
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Claudia Alvis wrote:
Charging my client for something like this didn't even cross my mind because it was such a minuscule task, so was I surprised when, about an hour later, I got a very detailed, signed! invoice from the translator for her minimum fee
As others have pointed out, there are communication issues that could have helped to defuse the situation (preferably in the form of advance negotiation).
But there is one point that surprises me.
I am surprised that it could be suggested on a forum for freelancers that freelancers should be EXPECTED to do something for nothing.
Freelancers may sometimes DECIDE to provide a service for nothing (for their own reasons, which are usually to do with client relationships), but as an EXPECTATION I find this rather difficult.
This may be a cultural thing, of course - I note that most of those who share the expectation that the colleague should have done something for nothing are based in Latin America. Perhaps there is something about the pressure on the market in Latin America (and other regional cultural factors) that I do not appreciate.
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Claudia Alvis wrote:
I never said I was gonna give a bad reference about her. I would never lie about something like that. But to me, $35.00 for 1 minute of work is a big deal, and if I were asked for a reference, that would DEFINITELY come up.
I can imagine this phone call:
Translator's Potential Client: Hello, I was wondering if you could give me your opinion about X as a translator. I am particularly interested in hearing about the quality of her work and her ability to meet deadlines.
You: I have to say that her work is really good and she has never missed a deadline, however, there is SOMETHING you should know... (long pause full of meaning)
Translator's Potential Client: Yes?
You: Well, this one time, she CHARGED me a minimum fee for a small job and "I was angry, OK?"
But you're also contradicting yourself, you say that you don't see anything strange in that kind of practice, yet somehow you also think that mentioning or even highlighting that fact is a "punishment". This thread shows that some people think that a one-hour minimum fee for such a small job is perfectly acceptable, and others disagree.
Human communication is less about the words you speak and more about how you say them. It wouldn't be very hard for me to give someone a "bad" reference, a transcript of which would read as anything but. Your original post makes it very clear that you "CAN'T WAIT" for the opportunity to give her a reference, and the reader is left with little doubt about what kind of reference it would be.
I perfectly see that I should have done things differently, you live and learn! But the fact that she took much more time to write the invoice and charging one hour for one minute is what really bothers me, I was stupid to expect a reasonable fee from this person. Although I also see that 'reasonable' is a very gray area.
My wife and I went on a short city break to Paris earlier this year. At the end of a day of sightseeing, she still had the energy to want to do some shopping and all I wanted was to sit down and relax, so we split up. She went to the shops and I found a cafe and ordered myself some food and a beer. I didn't look at the menu when ordering the drink.
Everything was fine until the bill was brought to me. To my "surprise" 500ml of beer cost me 11 euros! I checked this against the menu and that's what the menu said, so I paid the bill, left a tip and went home.
What I learned from this experience is that you should always look at the menu before ordering.
My impression is that in my position you would have "learned" that the French are greedy and you should never go back to Paris.
The real lesson here is your attitude to this whole thing. You expect other people to somehow agree with your idea of "right", "reasonable" and "fair", whereas the only way to work with other people is to find out what they consider reasonable and formulate a suitable compromise.
The funniest thing is that had you discussed prices with her before and mentioned that you're not being paid, she would have been very likely to do it for free.
| | | | Kevin Lossner 
Portugal
Local time: 20:25
alemão para inglês
+ ...
| Expectations and policies | Dec 3, 2008 |
Victor wrote:
This may be a cultural thing, of course - I note that most of those who share the expectation that the colleague should have done something for nothing are based in Latin America. Perhaps there is something about the pressure on the market in Latin America (and other regional cultural factors) that I do not appreciate.
Indeed. I have the impression that many people in that market are so brutalized by the price wars that they actually think they are worth the two cents per word that outsourcers generously offer them. However, there are others in the same language pair that seem to rise above such muck and make a proper go of things. And when they do, they probably take control of their businesses on their own terms.
Carvallo wrote:
Claudia is right. This is unacceptable from someone who is having steady work from her outsourcer.
This translator is so much "dollarized", that I wouldn't work again with her either. A lot of my clients love me due to things like that. I just can't charge them for five minutes of my time!
Some serious campesino mentality there, unfortunately. Or maybe just a misunderstanding of what makes you successful. If you "can't" charge for your time, you may find life as an independent business person difficult. I wouldn't presume to tell any translator when to charge or what to charge for this sort of thing. There is always a context for these decisions, and that context is very important. Sometimes you need to send a message. Some people do it with flowers, others with a horse's head and others with an invoice.
My guess is that your customers *really* love you because you can deliver the quality they need when they need it. The rest is just nice-to-have. I do lots of freebies for my clients, but I do that because I want to, when I want to, for my own reasons. A few months back I spent several hours giving detailed assistance to an agency owner whom I consider a good friend, who is a guest in my home and whom I have helped recover very large sums of money from deadbeat American clients by drafting firm, lawyer-like letters that scared the pants off these people and made them pay. All for free. (And not because I'm making a lot of money off this guy - he's my lowest payer. I just like him.) Shortly thereafter, one of his PMs called up with an emergency request for one or two sentences to be translated. I told her there would be the usual minimum charge, and she had a fit and informed me that because they had no minimum charge for their customer, it was unreasonable for me to apply one. Oh really? That issue was, of course, resolved quickly (I think I even offered to raise the minimum charge to cover the free consulting before her boss told her she was nuts), but I think it illustrates how we can sometimes get confused about our real interests and misinterpret motivations and power balances in a relationship.
From the little bit of info I've got on the situation, I might have done it for free, or I might have charged 10 euros. Or 50 euros. Yes, 50 euros for one minute's work. It's not the time that has value, but the service. And I can even think of a few clients who might be charged 100 euros for this service. However, I would have made this clear up front, not for the first time when I send the invoice. But that's just me.
As for the "steady work" bit, any good translator who understands business will have that after a while. It's the quality of the work that matters, and maybe the quality is what warranted the $35 invoice. We simply don't know.
| | | | | The extra sachet of sugar | Dec 3, 2008 |
Victor Dewsbery wrote:
This may be a cultural thing, of course - I note that most of those who share the expectation that the colleague should have done something for nothing are based in Latin America. Perhaps there is something about the pressure on the market in Latin America (and other regional cultural factors) that I do not appreciate.
I don't think it is a culture-related situation. If you have been working for someone for a long time, to the satisfaction of both sides (in payments, deadlines, rates...) and your customer requests a tiny addition or change, it comes natural to me that I can do it free of charge as a little complimentary plus.
Let's compare with this: if you ate a dinner at a restaurant and asked for a second sachet of sugar for your coffee.... would it come natural to you if you were invoiced for the extra sachet? (after all, sugar costs money, and the waiter spent a couple of extra minutes going to your table, listening to your request and bringing the sugar to you, nicely presented in a separate saucer which will have to be picked from your table, washed, dried; it all takes time and money for the restaurant).
In this situation, I always add a little extra money in the tip for the hassle. I wouldn't like to be invoiced for the sachet, but I do pay it separately even if I am not requested to.
[Edited at 2008-12-03 10:58 GMT]
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Jon O (X)
Reino Unido
Local time: 21:25
holandês para inglês
+ ...
| sympathy for you | Dec 3, 2008 |
I must say, I think the translator's behaviour was not really on and shows a good deal of cheek. However, I still would not necessarily expect to get these jobs done for you for free. As others suggested, I think a small, symbolic payment would be in order and would most likely result in goodwill all round.
[Edited at 2008-12-03 13:30 GMT]
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This is an interesting discussion and both sides have a point. However, if Claudia really did use the word "favour" when talking to her translator, I think it should be pretty clear to anyone that she wasn't expecting to be charged.
If someone says to me "I need you to do me a favour, I need 10,000 words translated for tomorrow", it's obvious that the "favour" lies in having to drop everything - of course I'll be charging for the job. But if I'm asked to do a favour involving just ... See more This is an interesting discussion and both sides have a point. However, if Claudia really did use the word "favour" when talking to her translator, I think it should be pretty clear to anyone that she wasn't expecting to be charged.
If someone says to me "I need you to do me a favour, I need 10,000 words translated for tomorrow", it's obvious that the "favour" lies in having to drop everything - of course I'll be charging for the job. But if I'm asked to do a favour involving just a couple of minutes' work, it's equally obvious that they're not expecting me to charge for it. (And if I decide I will charge, I should make that clear from the outset.)
I have to say my sympathies lie more with Claudia than her translator on this one.
[Edited at 2008-12-03 14:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Extra package of ketchup | Dec 3, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote: I don't think it is a culture-related situation... Let's compare with this: if you ate a dinner at a restaurant and asked for a second sachet of sugar for your coffee....
Aha, but it *is* a matter of culture if you want to use this example (commercial culture).
I wasn't expecting to be charged for packages of ketchup at certain very well-known fast-food chains in Germany when I first moved there (as well as other outlets I've been to outside of the US)...
but I sure was! (and I got a receipt if I asked, too)
| | | | Kevin Lossner
Portugal
Local time: 20:25
alemão para inglês
+ ...
| Commercial food culture | Dec 3, 2008 |
Janet Rubin wrote:
Aha, but it *is* a matter of culture if you want to use this example (commercial culture).
Or what about refills of tea and coffee? I almost never get charged for those in the US, but here I pay about € 5 per cup for an extra coffee at my favorite café. As long as I know what to expect, I don't have a problem with it.
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| So that's why! | Dec 3, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Or what about refills of tea and coffee? I almost never get charged for those in the US, but here I pay about € 5 per cup for an extra coffee at my favorite café. As long as I know what to expect, I don't have a problem with it.
Oh, so that's why my European customers are so happy when I offer them some freebie. It allows them to enjoy some extra ketchup or another coffee! 
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Claudia, have you perhaps asked this translator for similar quick favours in the past?
If this was a one-off, I can understand you felt a bit miffed (although I wouldn't have ended the business relationship, I would have picked up the phone once I'd calmed down and sorted it out - people always act in a certain way for a reason), however if you have made a bit of a habit of this, then the translator had probably reached the end of her tether.
And remember, it's not just... See more Claudia, have you perhaps asked this translator for similar quick favours in the past?
If this was a one-off, I can understand you felt a bit miffed (although I wouldn't have ended the business relationship, I would have picked up the phone once I'd calmed down and sorted it out - people always act in a certain way for a reason), however if you have made a bit of a habit of this, then the translator had probably reached the end of her tether.
And remember, it's not just the minute or two that it took to quickly respond to your request. She was probably busy with something else at the time, her train of thought was interrupted and, unless she is a robot, it would have taken her time to really settle back down to do what she was doing. Before you know it in situations like this, you've lost 15 minutes, which for me translates into about 200-250 words when I'm working without interruptions and, well, guess what - that's at least 30 euros.
The fact that you only received the invoice an hour later would indicate to me that the translator actually thought about the implications of what she was doing - she didn't just fire off the invoice - so maybe something has happened previously that's made her feel she's just had enough anyhow and to hell with the consequences.
It's all speculation of course, just my take on the timing, but this is nothing a phone call wouldn't resolve or at least clarify.
[Edited at 2008-12-03 11:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Letônia
Local time: 22:25
Membro (2003)
inglês para letão
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| I fully understand that | Dec 3, 2008 |
We on average spend about two days a month doing these "free 2 word updates" to some past projects for our good and regular clients. What I cannot make out is how they coordinate it between themselves to send all these requests on the same day of a month? Yesterday was one of such days- about 20 such requests, more than half of which we couldn't do ourselves in the office, as it involved other Baltic languages. Thank God, our translators understand this, however it really may be maddening... say... See more We on average spend about two days a month doing these "free 2 word updates" to some past projects for our good and regular clients. What I cannot make out is how they coordinate it between themselves to send all these requests on the same day of a month? Yesterday was one of such days- about 20 such requests, more than half of which we couldn't do ourselves in the office, as it involved other Baltic languages. Thank God, our translators understand this, however it really may be maddening... say, a request to put the already translated/localised proper name in brackets and before it to insert back the original proper name - or some equally "complex" requests.
Or countless questions to explain why the same English word is written every time differently in the translation. Actually several times I have replied to such that these are case endings, but more in-depth explanation of Latvian grammar will be our hourly charge...
Uldis
Kevin Lossner wrote:
There may have been a miscommunication somewhere, and I am surprised that the subject of minimum fees had not come up before, but in principle I think the translator's billing was justified. We get a lot of little requests like this and have one dear client who can take a one-paragraph translation and pester us for five days with questions betraying his utter lack of understanding of English vocabulary, and there comes a point where one must attach a price to such fun to act as a filter. When all the "little favors" to a dozen people a day add up to several lost hours that have to be made up somewhere, where are we supposed to start making those "special exceptions".
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| | | | Roberto Rey
Colômbia
Local time: 14:25
Membro (2007)
espanhol para inglês
+ ...
| Can't disagree more! | Dec 3, 2008 |
[quote]Kevin Lossner wrote:
When all the "little favors" to a dozen people a day add up to several lost hours that have to be made up somewhere, where are we supposed to start making those "special exceptions".
I can't disagree more..."little favors" is what keeps my business going..not all is money! Why can't I be available and ready if a client asks me to do something for him/her. My motto is service, this service is known by my customers and they know they can rely on me. My clients always know that they pick up their phone (or email) and I'm always available for them. This keeps them coming back, giving me more work and telling other about my "services" and work..we can't be petty with every little thing a client asks for.
Are we forgetting that we live because of our clients or are we strangling our clients for every little penny?
I just love catching new clients that run from hungry translators, not for their bad translations but for their bad services or pettiness.
As someone said before, good translators aren't that hard to get....good service is very hard to get!
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| Bad business practices? | Dec 3, 2008 |
A bad business practice is the lack of communication which transpires from what we heard here. I give away some freebies, but I always ask the client if they are charging their client. I believe that she wants to ditch you, hence the minimum charge (which is not high... a minimum charge is a minimum charge). Being asked to charge 5 dollars for small things is quite annoying. Once I had to tell an agency that I'd rather do freebies than spend another 10 minutes doing an invoice for ... See more A bad business practice is the lack of communication which transpires from what we heard here. I give away some freebies, but I always ask the client if they are charging their client. I believe that she wants to ditch you, hence the minimum charge (which is not high... a minimum charge is a minimum charge). Being asked to charge 5 dollars for small things is quite annoying. Once I had to tell an agency that I'd rather do freebies than spend another 10 minutes doing an invoice for 5 pounds. If someone did to me what your translator did to you, I would accept it, especially if our relationship had been good. Why lose a good colleague for a mere $35? And I disagree with the concept that good translators are easy to find... they are not, especially translators who are good at their job, are punctual, communicate easily and rapidly and are professional...
G
[Edited at 2008-12-03 15:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kevin Lossner
Portugal
Local time: 20:25
alemão para inglês
+ ...
| Strangling for every little penny? | Dec 3, 2008 |
Satto (Roberto) wrote:
Are we forgetting that we live because of our clients or are we strangling our clients for every little penny?
You are a bit naive, my friend.
Aside from the fact that clients also survive and thrive because of the service we provide, which enable them to market their product effectively, avoid situations of liability, etc., consider the following recent example:
About a month ago, I got a call from an attorney requesting a copy of a certified translation I had prepared. I didn't know this man, as I had never worked for him. He had ordered the translation from my agency client in the same country, a valued client who treats me like gold, pays promptly and clearly gives a damn about quality and client satisfaction. I give this agency very high marks in everything that I am able to evaluate. However, the Bavarian courts through which I am sworn require that my name and contact data be on my stamp, so these jobs I do for the agency are never anonymous. The client knows who I am and can call me up directly. Which is what this fellow did. It seems that the two certified copies I had sent of his translation got lost by the US court, and he urgently needed two more copies.
My contract with that agency is not particularly onerous, but it does explicitly forbid me to conduct any direct business transactions with the end client. So I told him that the request would have to go through his business contact at the agency so that I would not be guilty of breach of contract. He understood that very clearly (he is an attorney after all), so he called the agency, which I had already notified and asked if it was OK just to send another copy gratis through the mail. They insisted I had to be paid, and so I agreed to charge a minimum fee of € 25. The fee they quoted to the client was more than three times that. He called me up again - furious - and I spent more than half an hour calming him down, assuring him of the good business practices of this company, etc. After he calmed down, he admitted to similarly high "minimum fees". Eventually the other parties worked things out, I sent the damned translation again and I got paid my bit of money that I had offered several times just to forget about. The whole thing was a fiasco as far as I was concerned, and I would have simply printed, stamped and signed another copy and thrown it in the mail next time I walked the dog as long as he didn't insist on registered delivery again, in which case I probably would have ended up charging him about € 50 for my time.
What do we learn from this?
- We often do not know how our clients conduct their business, nor is it any concern of ours if they do not choose to tell us. Hearing the high fee the agency requested was "too much information" as far as I was concerned, but I vigorously defended it and discovered that the attorney did the same to others. But some attorneys tend to be arrogant toward commoners.
- Germans have a talent for making simple things very complex. This can be very charming sometimes, like with those cuckoo clocks or the rules to card games like Doppelkopf. At other times it is less so.
- Sometimes direct clients really are easier to deal with. Then you can decide what to do in such situations yourself without contractual entanglements involving a third party.
| | | | | Right & Wrong | Dec 3, 2008 |
Victor wrote:
This may be a cultural thing, of course - I note that most of those who share the expectation that the colleague should have done something for nothing are based in Latin America. Perhaps there is something about the pressure on the market in Latin America (and other regional cultural factors) that I do not appreciate.
Right! It is a cultural thing. We Latin Americans love to be helpful, nice, hospitable, warm and welcoming to guests and strangers, even if that means NO money.
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Indeed. I have the impression that many people in that market are so brutalized by the price wars that they actually think they are worth the two cents per word that outsourcers generously offer them. However, there are others in the same language pair that seem to rise above such muck and make a proper go of things. And when they do, they probably take control of their businesses on their own terms.
Wrong! We are not "brutalized" by prices; we Latin Americans think that we're worth what we are worth! Only inexperienced translators charge 2, 3, 4, 5 cents per word. Others charge a lot more, and outsourcers generously pay us what we ask when we and they are sure that our work worths it.
Carvallo wrote:
Claudia is right. This is unacceptable from someone who is having steady work from her outsourcer. This translator is so much "dollarized", that I wouldn't work again with her either. A lot of my clients love me due to things like that. I just can't charge them for five minutes of my time!
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Some serious campesino mentality there, unfortunately. Or maybe just a misunderstanding of what makes you successful. If you "can't" charge for your time, you may find life as an independent business person difficult.
Wrong! No "campesino mentality", colleague. Most Latin Americans with an Internet connection are not "campesinos" at all. We live in several of the largest and most important metropolis in Latin America, and perhaps in the world. Life here is as difficult and hard as may be in your own country. It's just that we can't charge for everything, we are human persons dealing with human persons. And this involves a lot of things, including courtesy.
Do you get my point?
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