Björn Vrooman Jun 24, 2017:

Even if we were to accept a German editor and limit it to geology, you'll end up with a dictionary such as this one:
https://books.google.de/books?id=4W-hDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA586&lpg=P...

With the prefix again. And from an ENS editor, as far as I can see:
https://books.google.de/books?id=nauWlPTBcjIC&pg=PA453&lpg=P...

Same. BTW, no one has addressed the issue of the "Ver-" prefix in German I mentioned at the beginning of the discussion.

"since the Eng. could also mean"

Why would you think that? The prefix "in-" has two meanings in English:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/in-

E.g., "influx" doesn't mean there is no flux! In this context, "in-" suggests a closer association with the second meaning, not the first ("turned into carbon").

OK, I'm out. No more email notifications for Emma, no worries.

Best wishes

Björn Vrooman Jun 24, 2017:

Not gonna drag this out, but I feel the need to respond to three of your statements.

"written by 1 guy btw"
Not true; this should even be clear from the book cover:
https://store.americangeosciences.org/glossary-of-geology-fi...

Also note that the three mentioned are the editors, not the contributors! In any case, if a glossary of terms no longer trumps a presentation by some researchers, we are officially scr***d. Maybe it's just my experience, but I once devoted an entire essay in sociology to the misuse of the word "alienation" in science...

"minus archeology"
Not sure I understand this bit, but the question said: "material of a crucifix found during the excavation of a graveyard"
I'd assume the person who excavated the graveyard was an archaeologist and not a geologist-turned-graverobber. We'd need to know how archaeologists describe the process.

Going by KudoZ rules, your answer is still the most helpful one. I don't know what Stephen found so convincing or why Phil had to add a LEO link again, but IIRC, the Technikwörterbuch has a German editor and is about nuclear technology, so *shrug*.

Herbmione Granger Jun 24, 2017:

@Björn In the AGI book glossary (written by 1 guy btw), that you so nicely highlighted, definition (a) (1 of 4) for 'carbonization' starts with 'In the process of coalification...', so carbonization occurs during coalification, which is consistent with what I've been saying. I gave a version of definition (c) earlier. Also, it's very possible that 'carbonized wood' was used to distinguish from 'petrified wood' without thinking about 'carbonization' or 'petrification'... Unless it's in very common use, I would avoid using 'incarbonized', since the Eng. could also mean 'not-carbonized' or '(in carbon)ized'... These are all good points that you brought up (minus archeology, since the term is 'inkohltes Holz', so a film is irrelevant). I think that we helped enough. Have a good weekend, all!

Björn Vrooman Jun 23, 2017:

@herbalchemist Here's the glossary of the American Geological Institute:
https://books.google.de/books?id=yD79FqfECCYC&pg=PA124&lpg=P...

I doubt you can top this one :D

There, "carbonization" is said to be happening "in the process of coalification"--if I read that correctly, the former is a subcategory of the latter, not the other way around. What's more, a synonym suggested for "coalification" is "incarbonization," as confirmed here: http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/coalification

Isn't that "in-" jumping out at you--just a teeny-tiny bit?

In any case, it's not whether I'm satisfied, but the asker. I've made my point, discussed it and posted enough references for Emma to decide which one is more apt. After all, this isn't even so much about geology as it is about archaeology. I did indicate more than once that I'm not entirely certain.

Maybe someone should ask her:
http://www.ucd.ie/research/people/archaeology/drlornao'donne...

To both of you:
Have a nice weekend!

Herbmione Granger Jun 23, 2017:

@Björn From a Geological Society of America meeting: Wood is generally preserved in one of two ways, through permineralization or as carbonized wood (coalified or charcoalified). https://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2006AM/webprogram/Paper115192.htm... Are you finally satisfied that my Answer is not opposed to the other (although they came to the answer in a weird way).

Björn Vrooman Jun 23, 2017:

"'Karbonisierung' is clearly a borrowing"
Talk about "borrowing": http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=carbon&allowed_in_frame... And it doesn't matter whether the term is borrowed from another language; I was merely responding to your bit about "used commercially." Most of the time, Germans feel the need to create another word for what may be the same process but is used in a different context. This is what makes looking for some EN terms so difficult; they just don't exist.

Thanks for the link, although it may be a bit misleading. Cf:
"Carbonization is when living tissue leave a carbon film in sediment and rock. Many plant fossils are preserved through carbonization."
https://www.uky.edu/KGS/education/leaf.htm

And this:
"Carbonization refers to fossils being preserved as dark-colored, flattened, carbon-rich films. Most fossil leaves in the rock record have been carbonized."
http://www.jsjgeology.net/Carbonization.htm

AND this (pics about "coalified" and "carbonized"):
http://petrifiedwoodmuseum.org/carbonization.htm

We certainly aren't talking about a carbon film. Also, I'm not sure a "carbonized crucifix" is the result you want to end up with...just my two cents, ofc.

Best

Herbmione Granger Jun 23, 2017:

@Björn The general use of 'carbonisation' is not a US/UK thing http://www.discoveringfossils.co.uk/fairlight_fossils.htm 'Karbonisierung' is clearly a borrowing, since 'carbon' in DE is not 'Karbon' but 'Kohlenstoff' (coal-stuff). Maybe someone noticed that a 'whatever' term is useful... I have been saying that 'carbonized wood' in this context is accurate but not precise, and I prefer a term that is both. Since the category is 'Art History', I will not insist on it. BTW No, I'm not that type of evil.

Björn Vrooman Jun 23, 2017:

BTW It's kind of funny to see you defending the other answer, while I'm defending yours. Is this some kind of reverse psychology?

Björn Vrooman Jun 23, 2017:

"Geologists seem to use"

Ever thought about some scientist using the wrong word? I've read enough US research papers in my life and I wouldn't put it past someone. You will find the same "carbonized wood fragments" on the CO blog (it's a blog!) termed "coalified wood fragments" on the British Geological Survey page I've linked below.

There just may be a bit of a UK/US difference here, as there seems to be a stronger case for "carbonized" based on what I've read in M-W. Have you, by any chance, ever visited my KudoZ profile? One of the two questions I've asked on here was this one:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/English/environment_ecology/563663...

It goes to the heart of the matter. Just because someone uses "carbonized" doesn't make it correct - and I haven't addressed "carbonified."

"is also used commercially"
Yes, but that one is called "Karbonisierung" in German:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karbonisierung

You see, German has a word for everything where ENS just might say "whatever." The point is that it's not enough to look into one of these databases or bilingual dics, as they don't give context. But even they say "chemistry," not "geology."

Herbmione Granger Jun 23, 2017:

carbonific Adressing the previous related Kudoz entry http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_german/chemistry_chem_s... , the translation should have been something like 'kohlenstoffhaltig', based on the definition given.

Herbmione Granger Jun 23, 2017:

@Björn 'Carbonized' and 'coalified' are different, but I don't think that they are in opposition. Geologists seem to use 'carbonization' to refer to conversion to a carbonaceous material by (fast) radical chemical (charring) or (slow) biochemical + physical (coal making) means. 'Carbonized wood' is appropriate if you don't know which process occurred http://coloradoearthscience.blogspot.de/2011/04/carbonized-w... If we take the word 'inkohltes' seriously, it refers to 'natural' carbonization, and we can say that the wood is 'coalified' or 'carbonified' ('carbonified' sounds nicer). Nowadays, 'carbonized wood' is also used commercially to mean wood that has been caramelized for flooring https://www.ambientbp.com/carbonized-bamboo-flooring

Björn Vrooman Jun 23, 2017:

@herbalchemist and Lancashireman "carboni[s/z]ation" is an industrial process, called "Verkohlung" in German:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/carbonize
http://www.wissen.de/lexikon/verkohlung
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonization
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holzkohle#Verkohlung_in_Meiler...

"Inkohlung" is a naturally occuring phenomenon called "coalification" in English.
http://www.ruhrzechenaus.de/glossar/glossar_inkohlung.html
https://www.britannica.com/science/coalification

Cf: "Inkohlung ist also ein Vorgang, bei dem aus Holz durch Erhöhung von Druck und Temperatur kohlenstoffhaltige Gesteine entstehen."
https://www.mineralienatlas.de/lexikon/index.php/RockData?ro...

"The degree of change undergone by a coal as it matures from peat to anthracite – known, once again, as coalification – has an important bearing on its physical and chemical properties and is referred to as the 'rank' of the coal."
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-process-of-coalification
+
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?pub=BRLG

If I read this correctly, the first answer is diametrically opposed to the second.

Herbmione Granger Jun 22, 2017:

carbonified I also thought of 'carbonified' http://www.thefreedictionary.com/coalification I think that these terms are a closer translation of 'inkohltes', but 'carbonized wood' could refer to the same object.

Lancashireman Jun 22, 2017:

carbonised/coalified Inspired by the choice on offer, I performed a search for "coalised wood" and for "carbonified wood". Both produced results!