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классы судов по РРР "М","О","Р","Л"
высокочистые марки технического углерода

Glossary entry

Russian term or phrase:

по понятиям

English translation:

going by the rulebook (codebook)

Added to glossary by Rachel Douglas
Jul 15, 2013 16:42
10 yrs ago
Russian term

по понятиям

Russian to English Art/Literary Government / Politics pre-election campaign
А по понятиям xxx благообразный чиновник, по доброте душевной пожалевший злейшего врага.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 the way xxx sees it
3 +3 and in terms of public perception, xxx comes across as a ...
4 +1 by the codes of the friends of ours / made men
4 according to X
4 in X´s understanding
Change log

Jul 16, 2013 22:14: Rachel Douglas Created KOG entry

Discussion

Mariusz Kuklinski Jul 16, 2013:
Fair point Fair point, Rachel. My best...
Rachel Douglas Jul 16, 2013:
Once again: Mariusz, of course "a friend of ours" or "friends of ours" are normal expressions. What is NOT normal is "of THE friends of ours", using the definite article when the phrase is not followed by some specification beginning with "who" or "that". But, anyway, my purpose here is not to give English lessons. I just think that translators might consider being a little less categorical about asserting that this or that phrase is or is not standard English, when they have a non-native command of the target language's grammar and usage. Turn the situation around: suppose I came to some Russian guy and declared that someone should write "по мнению наших друзьям" in some context or other. He would be quite right to tell me that "наших друзьям" is not normal Russian, and it would be silly of me to object - "я удвилена, что Вы отрицаете русское происхождение словосочетания "наши друзья".
Mariusz Kuklinski Jul 16, 2013:
Dear Rachel I mentioned the "made men" in Wikipedia not for "made men" themselves but because the phrase "a friend of ours" is specifically quoted there, after "Five Families: the Rise, Decline, and Resurgence of America's Most Powerful Mafia Empires", by Selwyn Raab. Macmillan, 2005, so I am somewhat surprised that you have reservations about an English provenience of that phrase.
Rachel Douglas Jul 15, 2013:
Replies Mariusz, I don't know why I should read Wikipedia about "made men." I know what it means, although many readers might not, because my husband happens to have a collection of 20 or 30 books on the New York and New Jersey mafias! But, since you mention it: in addition to likely not being recognized by readers in the criminal sense (it does have other meanings), I think it's too specific. As I wrote before, it seems better not to embellish.

Oleg, if you native speakers can't tell whether the author really wanted to insinuate that Sobyanin is following a criminal code, or if he just was playing around with an expression that originates in that realm, far be it from me to get into a discussion of which one is the case. What I said is that "going by the rulebook" covers both cases.

It seems likely that your diplomats said "of our friends" or "of friends of ours," not "of the friends of ours." But, quite apart from that rogue article, I don't think "friends of ours" works here because - who would "we" be this context? In English it's by no means clear who "friends of ours" refers to.
Oleg Lozinskiy Jul 15, 2013:
And, IMHO. the primary question is... ...WHO is the ADDRESSEE of the translation???
Mariusz Kuklinski Jul 15, 2013:
Rachel Please read the entry in Wikipedia mentioned by Oleg. on "made men". It's in the English edition.
Oleg Lozinskiy Jul 15, 2013:
Let's try to figure out... ...what's implicit? and what's explicit? (IN THIS PARTICULAR CONTEXT)?

Would (could?) it be to the benefit of (ALL?) translators addressing themselves to KudoZ?

Re: yours 'and "of the friends of ours" is not normal English at all' - probably, but I've learnt it in my 'verbal' communication with British, U.S. and Canadian diplomats. :-)
Rachel Douglas Jul 15, 2013:
Be careful Oleg, the expression "by the rulebook" can refer to a literal code or an implicit one, so I wouldn't try to embellish it. It's nicely vague, like the original. But if one were to embellish, non-normal phrasing should be avoided: "by the verbal codes" sounds off, and "of the friends of ours" is not normal English at all.
Mariusz Kuklinski Jul 15, 2013:
Chapeau bas Oleg!
Oleg Lozinskiy Jul 15, 2013:
Осталось разобраться (ASKER'у)... ...Принадлежит ли ХХХ к числу 'friends of ours'? Принадлежит ли его 'злейший враг' к числу 'friends of ours'? А может они оба принадлежат к числу 'friends of ours'?

Imho, цепочка все усиливающихся вариантов перевода могла бы быть такой:

Going by the rulebook (предложенная Rachel в комментарии к ответу Романа - probably, enhanced by 'the verbal rulebook') --> by the unwritten rules / by the [verbal] codes of the friends of ours.

Предложенные мною изначально в качестве 'запасного' (и самого сильного) варианта 'made men', я бы, по здравом размышлении, В ДАННОМ (ДОСТАТОЧНО РАСПЛЫВЧАТОМ) КОНТЕКСТЕ не использовал - с учетом того, imho, какую роль играют и ХХХ, и тот второй ('который не успел'). :-)
Max Deryagin Jul 15, 2013:
To: Roman Роман, вы и Олег дали два хороших варианта перевода, а придавать тексту воровской оттенок или не придавать — пусть уж решает аскер :)
Roman Bardachev Jul 15, 2013:
Согласен с Максом, не совсем ясно какие "понятия" имеются в виду - воровские или вообще общие представления обывателей. Комментаторы в блогах любят играться с жаргоном. Но я не очень разбираюсь в российских персоналиях, упомянутых в статье, поэтому не уверен, следует ли давать переводу "воровской" оттенок.
Max Deryagin Jul 15, 2013:
Точно! А я про «под-статейность» даже и не задумывался. Спасибо, что объяснили :)
Oleg Lozinskiy Jul 15, 2013:
Спасибо, Max! Ессно, "расплывчато, неточно"! А какой журналист (российский) захочет пойти под уголовную статью 128.1 по недавно принятому 'закону о клевете' - http://www.zakonrf.info/uk/128.1/

Да и переводчикам, imho, следует это учитывать - отсюда мое the codes of the friends of ours (не our friends) Если ASKER'у захочется усилить - то 'made men' :-))

Конечно, если регулярно смотреть новости по "зомбоящику", то весь народ живет "по понятиям". Вопросы к социологам: "Какой процент народа (public) регулярно "смотрит ящик?" И что именно? Новости?
Max Deryagin Jul 15, 2013:
Я согласен, Олег Я имел ввиду, что ответ Романа был ближе всего к правде среди представленных (на тот момент).

Однако в статье фраза употреблена как-то расплывчато, неточно. Не могу понять — то ли автор имеет ввиду именно воровские понятия, то ли какие-то абстрактные понятия современного русского общества.
Oleg Lozinskiy Jul 15, 2013:
Max, Я тоже обратил на это внимание за пару минут до Вас и дал ответ, не видя Вашего комментария.

Но если 'по понятиям' = 'по воровским понятиям', то как можно ЭТО переводить как 'in terms of PUBLIC perception'???

А насчет того, к какому кругу принадлежит г-н ХХХ - к "public", к "friends of ours" или же к российским 'made men' - это судить ASKER'у... :-)
Max Deryagin Jul 15, 2013:
Oh gosh... «По понятиям» here is as it is in «по воровским понятиям» (structurally). No comma is needed. Just check the source!

http://www.echomsk.spb.ru/projects/zhyzn/munitsipalnyy-filtr...

Roman is right.
Mariusz Kuklinski Jul 15, 2013:
The Google :-)) :-))
Which means, you were right, Roman. QED.
Alexander Grabowski Jul 15, 2013:
The Google renders it to the page
Roman Bardachev Jul 15, 2013:
Folks, you can easily google the source text
Alexander Grabowski Jul 15, 2013:
Usually, there should be put А по понятиям xxx -- благообразный чиновник, по доброте душевной пожалевший злейшего врага. or: А по понятиям -- xxx благообразный чиновник, по доброте душевной пожалевший злейшего врага. So the sense of the phrase substantially depends of the position of the missing hyphen imho.
Mariusz Kuklinski Jul 15, 2013:
As I see it, first, of course, a comma is missing there but if we look at it from the point of view of grammar, it seems that xxx is the grammatical subject of the sentence rather than a grammatical object, therefore it's not his perception that it is about, it is a perception in respect of him. See also: "Путин дал такой сигнал ворам. Теперь для них уголовная статья — не уголовно наказуемая. Теперь для них — простор для распила и хищений. Пришел пахан. Жизнь пошла — по понятиям." http://tinyurl.com/qcv45cm. Therefore, Roman is right, QED.

Proposed translations

+3
15 mins
Selected

the way xxx sees it

Something like that; more context might help.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2013-07-15 16:59:39 GMT)
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If xxx is not a person or institution, but, say, a body of law or a set of regulations, then, "from the standpoint of."


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day5 hrs (2013-07-16 22:29:57 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

To kergap: Really, I think that Roman is the one who solved this for you, not me. I put a variation on his entry in the glossary, not my initial version.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day19 hrs (2013-07-17 12:05:06 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Thank you for those kind words. If you mean that you chose "by the rulebook," then OK. But if you chose my initial version, "the way xxx sees it," that is simply incorrect. It's not a question of colloquial or not, but of the sense. For "the way xxx sees it" to be right, the original had to have been "Собянина", but it was "Собянин", as somebody pointed out. So therefore "по понятиям" is a separate phrase, and it has this criminal origin that Roman identified - "by the criminal code" or, in my more flexible version, "by the rulebook."
Note from asker:
I have been following your answers for a long time. For me they were very convincing. I got used to trust you. And I always had in mind that you were a native speaker apart from being clever and experienced in language matters. In his particular case I proceeded from Multitran’s take the law into own hands (действовать согласно принятым в данной среде, корпорации и т. п. правилам, нормам, что часто приводит к нарушению законов to act by the norms of one's organization or by one's perception of right and wrong, often contrary to legal norms) Now,Roman’s “and in terms of public /not only public/ perception, xxx comes across as a /perhaps, he meant ”to pass oneself for….“ is bad because 1) it is, unlike по понятиям, not colloquial 2) not improvement on Multitran’s version (not colloquial either) Your version is definitely better: 1) it is colloquial 2) it covers both public and individual
Peer comment(s):
agree Pavel Altukhov
36 mins
Thanks, but the context shows that Roman is basically right. I had heard it as being like "по моим понятиям", analogous to "по моему мнению", with xxx in the genitive case. But xxx is in the nominative.
agree Roman Bardachev : I'll support your "by the rulebook"
4 hrs
Thanks, Roman - but, really, I missed the essential meaning. The only reason I didn't delete this as an "errant answer," is that the correction may be interesting for people who also thought what I did.
agree cyhul
2 days 12 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Спасибо!"
+3
26 mins

and in terms of public perception, xxx comes across as a ...

and in terms of public perception, xxx comes across as a [благообразный чиновник]
Peer comment(s):
agree Mariusz Kuklinski
13 mins
Thank you, Mariusz
agree Rachel Douglas : I wonder if, because of the way the expression is used (as explained in the discussion and clear from the fuller context), it might work with "Going by the rulebook, xxx is a..." That has a certain overtone.
2 hrs
Thank you, Rachel. Going by the rulebook will definitely cut it.
agree Max Deryagin : Roman's is the only valid version.
2 hrs
Thank you, Max
neutral Oleg Lozinskiy : Я себя причисляю к 'public', и поэтому...
2 hrs
Thank you, Oleg
Something went wrong...
52 mins

according to X

Another option.
Something went wrong...
54 mins

in X´s understanding

that´s how I would put it

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 58 Min. (2013-07-15 17:41:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or in X´s view, or - if no Person is involved - viewed from the angle of X
Something went wrong...
+1
2 hrs

by the codes of the friends of ours / made men

Вообще то в России "по понятиям" живут "воры в законе" и их приближенные. А сейчас еще и многие из тех, которые...

По поводу английского варианта - см. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_man
Peer comment(s):
agree Max Deryagin : Интересная версия. Как вариант: by the thieves' code. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief_in_law#The_Thieves.27_Cod...
1 hr
Спасибо за поддержку! Но... не поддержу Ваш вариант (в т.ч. памятуя о 128.1) :-)
Something went wrong...
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