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épargne du carter
regard en pied de descente (chute) EP

Glossary entry

français term or phrase:

magasin de détail (sur une plantation)

anglais translation:

commissary

Added to glossary by Catharine Cellier-Smart
May 1, 2013 13:00
11 yrs ago
4 viewers *
français term

magasin de détail

français vers anglais Sciences sociales Architecture Estate outbuildings
Target: UK English

On a tourist information panel this is one of the outbuildings listed in the inventory of what was a large coffee/sugar estate on Reunion Island.

L’inventaire de 1831 quant à lui fait état des dépendances suivantes : « deux magasins, un magasin de détail, un hôpital, la cuisine des noirs, la cuisine, un office, une boulangerie ».

Given the context and time period I'm pretty definite this is not a "retail shop/store"!

I can only imagine that it refers to a storehouse were items were kept in smaller quantities than in the other two warehouses, but even if this is the case I can't seem to find a succinct way of expressing this.

TIA, as always.
Proposed translations (anglais)
2 +2 commissary
4 +1 RETAIL STORE
5 retail shop
References
magasin de détail, historical refs

Discussion

Germaine May 2, 2013:
"Commissary" (a store that sells food and supplies to the personnel or workers in a military post, mining camp, lumber camp, or the like - Oxford et al.) really looks like a good fit. If your client doesn't agree, then "general store" would be a second choice:
In the year of 1837... Montgomery was sold as a slave to Joseph Emory Davis... assigned to him the responsibility of running his general store on the Davis Bend plantation. Montgomery... served both white customers and slaves who could trade poultry and other items in return for dry goods...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Montgomery
Catharine Cellier-Smart (asker) May 2, 2013:
References! I don't find your opinion objectionable, IMO 'shop' is simply not contextually appropriate here. If somebody can find (a) reference(s) where a (retail) shop exists in the first half of the 19th century on a remote slave plantation/estate I'm perfectly willing to accept it! But nobody did, and Sheri's suggestion of "commissary" seems exactly what I was looking for.
Jane Proctor (X) May 2, 2013:
Of course Catharine and like others who have posted here, I am absolutely fine with shop, although I prefer store. I am sorry that you find my opinion so objectionable! But no problem. Good luck in finding an acceptable answer.
Catharine Cellier-Smart (asker) May 2, 2013:
Have you read the other discussion entries and my remarks on other answers? We're talking about an early 19th century agricultural estate in a rural, isolated area populated by slaves with no money to spend...
Jane Proctor (X) May 2, 2013:
why ever not shop?
Catharine Cellier-Smart (asker) May 2, 2013:
@Jane It's not a case of distinction between 'magasin' & 'magasin de détail'; I've already consulted a French native speaker as to the exact meaning in French; the question here has been how to translate 'magasin de détail' in a contextually appropriate way - certainly not as 'shop'.
Jane Proctor (X) May 2, 2013:
With Germaine Someone whose first language is French is best placed to make the distinction. 2 storehouses/warehouses and a shop/store. Omit the word "retail".
Germaine May 1, 2013:
Catharine You have a point, même si la possibilité qu'ils aient eu un peu d'argent à l'occasion n'est pas à exclure. Vous vous souvenez de la série Racines (Roots) sur l'esclavage dans les états du Sud des États-Unis? Cela dit, il y avait des cuisines, un office, une boulangerie, un hôpital. Toutes ces installations nécessitaient des fournitures. Il n'est donc pas exclu que c'est à ce "magasin de détail" qu'on se fournissait. En recherchant l'expression, je n'ai pas trouvé un autre sens, mais c'est peut-être une recherche à poursuivre...

Autre chose: si les esclaves ne pouvaient pas acheter, leurs maîtres, les contremaîtres et d'autres personnels d'encadrement le pouvaient probablement, eux.
Catharine Cellier-Smart (asker) May 1, 2013:
Not a general store @Tony
The estate was in a rural area, I feel that given how difficult it would have been to access it people would not have come by to buy coffee; I'm not even sure much was consumed locally, I think it all had to be exported.

@Germaine - slaves might have needed these items, but by definition, as slaves they couldn't buy them - they had no salary, no money.
writeaway May 1, 2013:
Gemaine's info and the ref I posted below all point to general store.
Wendy Streitparth May 1, 2013:
Perhaps general store would fit better.
General store from the 1830s and post office in 1860s.
http://www.ukvbuilder.co.uk/sites/woolhampton/a-walk-round-t...
Germaine May 1, 2013:
Ça correspondrait à ce qu'on appellait ici à l'époque un "magasin général" i.e. un magasin où vous pouviez achetez du sucre, de la farine, des tissus, des bottes, une hache... all under the same roof. Even slaves needed these.
Tony M May 1, 2013:
Why not? It is perfectly possible that people might come and buy their sugar etc. direct from the estate, and even though back then it might not have been actually called a 'retail store', in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I feel sure that's what it was. Maybe something like 'sales counter'?
Catharine Cellier-Smart (asker) May 1, 2013:
This was an early 19th rural estate mainly populated by slaves. I don't see how a retail store would fit here.
Cyrz May 1, 2013:
retail store No doubt, it's a retail store/shop
Germaine May 1, 2013:
Je crois comme vous que les deux magasins sont des warehouses, mais le troisième devait être un retail shop, sinon, à quoi bon la distinction? Et puis, ça ferait beaucoup d'entrepôts qui n'ont rien à offrir au personnel et à la clientèle de toutes les autres installations.

Proposed translations

+2
10 heures
Selected

commissary

Catharine,

There are quite a few web refs. that use the term 'commissary' to refer to a storehouse/warehouse that was initially used for distributing supplies to slaves and then later became a type of general store post-slavery. All the refs. refer to U.S. plantations. Could this be equivalent to 'magasin de détail'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_complexes_in_the_Sou...

http://appl027.lsu.edu/rlm/rurallifeweb.nsf/$Content/History+Online/$file/Commissary.pdf

http://www.uwec.edu/geography/ivogeler/w188/p10.htm

http://www.gorp.com/parks-guide/plantation-agriculture-museu...

http://daviesmanorplantation.org/commissary/

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2013-05-01 23:23:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry for the garbled second link above -- please copy and paste to see the pdf.
Note from asker:
"... commissaries were warehouses filled with supplies required by the people who lived on the plantation: salt, rice, tobacco, potatoes, coffee, flour, leather, seeds, quinine and other medicines, and material like linsey and cottonade". Yes, this sounds very probable. I'll suggest it to the client.
Peer comment(s):
agree B D Finch : Sounds likely
10 heures
Thanks, B D
agree Germaine : excellente recherche!
19 heures
Merci Germaine
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Sheri!"
+1
8 minutes

RETAIL STORE

*
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
2 heures
Merci Phil ... même si le demandeur n'aime pas ...
Something went wrong...
1 heure

retail shop

Yes there was a real microeconomy going on the estate, here's a link: http://insitu.revues.org/10027
Note from asker:
Your reference refers to Villèle, which is geographically more accessible than the estate I'm translating about. And in your link I can't find any particular references to a "magasin de détail" or anything that would imply that there was commerce going on (other than growing the crops and getting them exported).
Peer comment(s):
neutral writeaway : shop/store same thing. shop is used more in UK Eng, store in NA Eng but even so, it's the same answer as above
1 heure
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 heure
Reference:

magasin de détail, historical refs

Dictionnaire étymologique des créoles français de l'océan Indien: ... - Page 169 - Google Books Result
books.google.com/books?isbn=3875480597 -
Annegret Bollée - 2000 - Creole dialects, French
... (qui caresse) la bouteille" 1831, butey "bouteille; contenu d'une bouteille (75 à ... épicerie, magasin de détail (alimentation principalement, mais on y vend un ...

http://books.google.be/books?id=VUufR_-Kf8kC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA...


Vint un temps où O’Brien, grâce à son vaste commerce de gros, importait du charbon de Sydney, Nouvelle-Écosse, des légumes de l’Île-du-Prince-Édouard, du bois de la Miramichi au Nouveau-Brunswick, de la mélasse de la Barbade, du sel pour les pêcheries, de Cadix, Espagne, et des produits manufacturés d’Angleterre. Son établissement de la rue Water avait grandi et comptait maintenant un quai, des entrepôts et un magasin de détail. Sur une partie des toits de ces bâtiments, il avait fait installer des claies pour le séchage de la morue. En 1833, et de nouveau en 1846 des incendies détruisirent les bâtiments d’O’Brien mais il les reconstruisit rapidement.
http://www.biographi.ca/009004-119.01-f.php?&id_nbr=4632&int...
Note from asker:
1st ref - these "boutiks" in Reunion are only found in towns 2nd ref - refers to a town
Something went wrong...
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