Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
qui ne seraient pas à l'origine
English translation:
including those that were not at the origin of / did not request/ did not order
Added to glossary by
Enza Longo
Jul 9, 2007 12:28
16 yrs ago
3 viewers *
French term
qui ne seraient pas à l'origine
French to English
Law/Patents
IT (Information Technology)
License Agreement
Tout Développement Spécifique sera intégré au Progiciel sans frais supplémentaires.
Les Développements Spécifiques devront être immédiatement exploitables par toutes les sociétés du groupe XXXX dans le monde, y compris ceux qui ne seraient pas à l'origine des dits programmes spécifiques.
Les Développements Spécifiques devront être immédiatement exploitables par toutes les sociétés du groupe XXXX dans le monde, y compris ceux qui ne seraient pas à l'origine des dits programmes spécifiques.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
8 hrs
Selected
which may not have generated
Suggestion.
Note from asker:
Hello Quqinimod, I should let you be aware of the fact that I gave you the points which were meant for Richard Benham and have contacted the moderator so that a correction could be made. By the way, your answer was one of the ones I was considering but Richard went to great lengths with his explanation so I felt he deserved the points. My apologies! |
oops - I meant "Euqinimod"! |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
22 mins
which did not originate/produce
...including any companies which did not originate (i.e. produce) the aforementioned specific programmes.
That's my slightly tentative reading of it, unless there's something I'm missing.
That's my slightly tentative reading of it, unless there's something I'm missing.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Alain Pommet
: But 'société' is feminine - 'ceux'?/That had me puzzled too - but if you start with the programme bit, I understand it as being 'whether or not' they are part of the originally planned developments.
4 mins
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Alain, your observation is correct, of course. But I think this is an error in the text. The other thing "ceux" could be referring back to is "Développement Spécifiques" - but that doesn't make sense (at least not to me!!)
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agree |
Richard Benham
: Hello. I tend to suspect there is an error in the text. However, I don't think "origine" has the sense you give it, although I am not 100% sure of this. See my answer for a detailed argument.
5 hrs
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Thanks for your comment, Richard. I see what you're getting at. "A l'origine" in the sense of being behind the development of programs.
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27 mins
those who may not be (present/on board) at the outset
This seems rather ambiguous. When you're around at the start-up of something, there is an implication that you are somehow responsible or complicit, but the wording I chose leaves the question of active participation open.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
christian landais
: "ceux qui" can be both object and persons. I doubt they're speaking at persons here
4 hrs
|
+1
33 mins
which may not in fact have been originally planned
Any developments whether or not they arose from the original (specific) development programme shall be made available to the group's companies.
+1
1 hr
including those developments not necessarily forming part of
They definitely mean development here. It takes tens of developments to reach one good program.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Manon J. Caron
: Je pense pour ce sens -
1 hr
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neutral |
Rob Grayson
: Not too sure how "à l'origine de" means "forming part of"?
3 hrs
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2 hrs
not having developed the said dedicated software
Is how I read it
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Richard Benham
: But what does the "ceux" refer to? The "sociétés"?//Well then some explanation of why the gender doesn't match might be helpful. I took the same view, but at least I articulated and argued for it.
2 hrs
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obviously: I only translated the bit that was actually asked
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+3
5 hrs
hummm......
I have thought about this for at least 30 seconds, and come to the following conclusion.
The expression "toutes..., y compris" suggests very strongly that what follows is included in the "toutes". This leads to a false agreement, since "ceux" is masculine and "toutes les sociétés" is feminine, as has already been pointed out. However, I think the suggestion of "toutes" before "les sociétés" and no "tous" before "Les Développements Spécifiques" is too strong to resist. I think the author is clearly a crap writer, and it is no surprise that he stuffed up the gender.
Another point: "des dits [sic] programmes spécifiques" seems to be just another way to refer to the "Développements Spécifiques". Why? Well, for one thing, there does not seem to be any reason for them to be the "said" programs, and in any case one is left wondering what the term is referring to if it's something different. And what do software people develop anyway, if not programs? This more or less gets rid of the possibility that "ceux" refers to the "Développements Spécifiques". (I do need some argument for this, because it could be argued on the contrary that the "y compris" relates to the "Tout" before "Développement Spécifiques", but this would, on my interpretation, result in the developments being at the origin of themselves....)
So what I think is happening is this. Different companies within the group may request the development of special programs for the needs of that company, but the software company is to ensure that these programs can be used by all companies in the group, including those not "at the origin of" (i.e. not having ordered) the program(s) in question.
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Note added at 4 days (2007-07-13 14:29:34 GMT) Post-grading
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It happens. I even awarded myself the points on a question once, due to a technical glitch... (The asker sent me an email about it, which included a link, and the link had the password in it....)
The expression "toutes..., y compris" suggests very strongly that what follows is included in the "toutes". This leads to a false agreement, since "ceux" is masculine and "toutes les sociétés" is feminine, as has already been pointed out. However, I think the suggestion of "toutes" before "les sociétés" and no "tous" before "Les Développements Spécifiques" is too strong to resist. I think the author is clearly a crap writer, and it is no surprise that he stuffed up the gender.
Another point: "des dits [sic] programmes spécifiques" seems to be just another way to refer to the "Développements Spécifiques". Why? Well, for one thing, there does not seem to be any reason for them to be the "said" programs, and in any case one is left wondering what the term is referring to if it's something different. And what do software people develop anyway, if not programs? This more or less gets rid of the possibility that "ceux" refers to the "Développements Spécifiques". (I do need some argument for this, because it could be argued on the contrary that the "y compris" relates to the "Tout" before "Développement Spécifiques", but this would, on my interpretation, result in the developments being at the origin of themselves....)
So what I think is happening is this. Different companies within the group may request the development of special programs for the needs of that company, but the software company is to ensure that these programs can be used by all companies in the group, including those not "at the origin of" (i.e. not having ordered) the program(s) in question.
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Note added at 4 days (2007-07-13 14:29:34 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
It happens. I even awarded myself the points on a question once, due to a technical glitch... (The asker sent me an email about it, which included a link, and the link had the password in it....)
Note from asker:
Sorry Richard, in my haste I hit the wrong button and gave someone else the points which were meant for you. I'm going to contact the moderator to see if this can be changed. |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Charlie Bavington
: Quite. There was an answer along these lines before, but it's been hidden now (I assume), but yes, I agree entirely that your last para is exactly what's happening. I'd probably try to work "instigate" in there for the "origin" bit.
3 hrs
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Thanks, CB. I'm still thinking about "instigate"; I can't help thinking of the "instigators" of a conspiracy or whatever!
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agree |
Charles Hawtrey (X)
: I agree with Richard's feeling about the writer. I also read the thing as having the meaning he suggests. Other meanings could be problematic in the overall sense of whe whole. I don't think I'd take on a job with conditions like that, though...
17 hrs
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Thanks. I think that condition could make sense in the context of the software developer's developing a big group-wide system from scratch...if people still do that.
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agree |
Tony M
: That's the way I saw it too, but I hid my answer because I was thrown by that gender problem.
3 days 20 hrs
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So that was you! Your answer must have come and gone while I was formulating mine! I was worried by it, but, after much deliberation, thought that assuming an error of gender was the only way to make sense of it.
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4 days
French term (edited):
qui ne seraient pas à l'origine
those which might not (necessarily) have originated
I'm re-posting my original, later hidden, answer, as it has been referred to by others.
I've phrased it rather clumsily like that, to follow the FR word order in your question, but actually I think it is essential here to turn it round to make it read more naturally in EN.
I have to admit, I'm not quite clear in my mind exactly what the relationships involved are here, but it seems to mean:
"...must be able to be implemented immediately by any of the companies in the X Group worldwide, even ones that may not have been originators of said Special Programs"
But like everyone else, it is the gender conflict between 'sociétés' and 'ceux' that worries me — and I hate having to assume an error in orer to make my answer work!
Anyway, here it is for what it's worth!
I've phrased it rather clumsily like that, to follow the FR word order in your question, but actually I think it is essential here to turn it round to make it read more naturally in EN.
I have to admit, I'm not quite clear in my mind exactly what the relationships involved are here, but it seems to mean:
"...must be able to be implemented immediately by any of the companies in the X Group worldwide, even ones that may not have been originators of said Special Programs"
But like everyone else, it is the gender conflict between 'sociétés' and 'ceux' that worries me — and I hate having to assume an error in orer to make my answer work!
Anyway, here it is for what it's worth!
Discussion