Conor McAuley Mar 15, 2021:

But you can't be doing a literal translation of "mentions" at third level (secondary, bac, yes).

That'll be a loooong footnote then? I got a A-B-C-D system worked out at some stage and then dropped it.

What is a "Supp."? But congrats anyway.

Scandalous that for your daughter's M2 "passable" started at 13/20!

So, it proves the point, which is that "trans-culturing" or even "trans-schooling" "honours" is to be avoided, duly noted. Many thanks for the insight Nikki.

I think, more broadly, maybe French employers pay more attention to pieces of paper but in the Anglosphere there is more attention paid to the applicant's suitability for the job. No cultural judgement, that's the way I consider it to be.

Then again, I've had friends who have gone through a gamut of tests and panel interviews, what a shocker!

Lastly Nikki, light-heartedly, I suggest that you should get Zs out of your system! It's "penalised", Madame!

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Mar 15, 2021:

@Conor Yeah, 'cos when push comes to shove, and here it does, we have to put some words in there after all. I provide a literal translation of the "mentions" and footnote clearly what range that represents on that course, on that date, in that uni/school. If I don't have that info, then I simply write, for "très bien" ("very good") and indicate in the footnote that this is a literal translation, and that there are four grade bands, etc. That still sells someone short if they got "félicitations du jury".

The décrêt and the arrêté go back to March/April 2002 and have been updated since, I believe. I got a Supp. au diplôme for my psychology M2 for example with the indication that it also conferred the professional title. My daughter's political science/law and international relations M2 indicated the mentions beyond "passable" started at 13/20. I've seen some courses at the Sorbonne applying a similar approach. The unis argue that it means their standards are higher. Out in the big wide world, it mean that if a student has to indicate the "mention" he got, he might in fact be penalized. If the "standard" rule is not that standard on a national scale, then it even less clear to other states!

Conor McAuley Mar 15, 2021:

Also Nikki, on the great legal question of our times...draw breath...I failed to go through your reference note in detail and reply, due to, shall we say, a distraction. I'm sure it was impeccably researched and evaluated.

Conor McAuley Mar 15, 2021:

Very wise words.

Nikki, would you then advise not to translate -- or equivalence (verb -- sorry) -- certain things?

I'm not in that "game" any more, 18 months was enough, but your insight would be useful?

Like, what would you you do with "mention très bien"? You have to do something with it, right?

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Mar 15, 2021:

"Palmarès" and "classement" I have seen the term used on certificates and so on when the institution is indeed referring to what might simply be described as "classement". In context, a 12,8/20
ranking 38/41 is not "honour roll" material.

Note the rules and regs regarding the "Note descriptive" and the "Supplément au diplôme". These documents provide additional information that assist receiving institutions in assessing content, results and finally the equivalence they will be considering for applications they receive beyond their national borders. The "Supplément" will also indicate details such as the award of a specific professional title, for example, again with meaning that is relevant to the country awarding the qualification. I once translated a Supplément that contained a specific note with regard to translators, reminding them not to translate titles, "grade" (FR) and so on.

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Mar 15, 2021:

Convention for qualifications/diploma You have to be very careful when it comes to translating qualifications and diplomas, of course. Translators have to be careful not to imply parallels or equivalents; that is the job of the receiving instituion. Note also that in France's higher education system, not all schools and unis stick to the standard cut-off points. The Université Jean Moulin Lyon 3 awards the "mention" assez bien when a student achieves an overall average of 13/20 whereas most unis would award that "mention" from 12/20 - 13.99/20. So it is indeed a risky thing to start "translating" into English terminology.

Conor McAuley Mar 14, 2021:

Note: "above 12", "Merit" means 60%-69%.

Avoid equivalencies at all costs, if you can. In my (second-hand) experience, 12/20 is considered pretty good in France.

Conor McAuley Mar 14, 2021:

Also known as an "Upper Second" (St Andrews-NARIC).

Basically the person got a very decent grade in a complex subject that leads to high earnings usually and that I'm not allowed to disclose.

Conor McAuley Mar 14, 2021:

According to my notes, between 12 and 14 out of 20 is "mention assez bien", "with honors" in US English, "with praise" in UK English, and "cum laude" in Latin, for the posher unis maybe!

Above 12 is a "Merit" for a master's degree and "Upper division" for a bachelor's degree in the UK system.

Complex, you say? Aye!

Marco Solinas Mar 14, 2021:

Nothing to write home about Ranking 38th out of 41 is hardly worth a mention. A neutral "class ranking" or similar wording seems appropriate.

Conor McAuley Mar 14, 2021:

You don't have "mention très bien", "mention bien", or "mention assez bien", so you don't need to worry about honours or summa cum laude or whatever.

The exact wording (at least) of Cyril's suggestion doesn't check out, perhaps the spirit of it does, but then again, talking about meeting minimum requirements when the person scored well above average is a bit harsh.

My solutions fit nicely in the gaps, I would dare to suggest.

Jenny Duthie (asker) Mar 14, 2021:

OMG!! oooh I'm in a right pickle now, can't decide what to choose!!

Mollie Milesi Mar 14, 2021:

Given the student's average of 12.8/20, that is "Mention Assez Bien" — honours, and is quite an achievement in a competitive post-secondary school. I would therefore tend to translate this by inclusion on the honour roll.

It definitely isn't a bare pass of 10/20, so it would not be 'has met the minimum requirements".

ph-b (X) Mar 14, 2021:

38e/41? Ah, well, that hardly qualifies as palmarès. I still agree with Marco's answer as it answers the question as asked, but it would seem that the source text is not well written. What they're talking of here is nothing more than classement.

Jenny Duthie (asker) Mar 14, 2021:

a wee bit more context Here's a little more context,
Compte tenu des résultats obtenus durant le cursus, Monsieur XXXXXXXX obtient :
- une moyenne générale retenue pour le palmarès de promotion de : 12,8/20.
- un palmarès de promotion de : 38è/41

Conor McAuley Mar 14, 2021:

Jenny, the student's overall average grade was 12,8/20, that's what counts in what I interpret to be the class ranking. It's a decent grade, but his ranking shows you that he was up against some stiff opposition.

The key text is from "Compte tenu" to "41", that is what you should post for a second opinion.
I am still confident my answer is correct. "Class ranking" for me is an Americanism, but they (class rankings) are quite common in third-level education in France.

Jenny Duthie (asker) Mar 14, 2021:

Hi Marco..... Hi Marco, I like your suggestion, could you post it as an answer, please? Although I'd use "honour roll" or "roll of honour" as it's Brit English

Marco Solinas Mar 14, 2021:

To Asker Have you considered "Honor roll"? It is commonly used this side of the pond. See, for example, https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/honor-ro... .

"EDUCATION
a list of students who have done work of a very high standard"

Jenny Duthie (asker) Mar 14, 2021:

Thanks ph-b.... Thanks for your helpful comments, ph-b, but I'm wondering just how to translate the term, or should I leave it as "palmarès" with some kind of explanation afterwards? In the report, the student obtained an average in his marks from 11 out of 20 to 15 out of 20, if that's any help?

ph-b (X) Mar 14, 2021:

palmarès (2) Hard to know without seeing the source text, but there is a possibility that they're saying that the mark that was used to consider whether Mr X should be included in the palmarès was 12.8. In other words, while he probably passed, he didn't make it to said palmarès.

ph-b (X) Mar 14, 2021:

palmarès This word refers to the "best in class or in a group ", those who would have been given palms or the right to wear a crown made of palms in Roman times. In the context of education, le palmarès is a list of graduates (for instance) who did particularly well – they did not just graduate, they also achieved particularly high marks. Palmarès = liste des lauréats* d'une distribution des prix, d'un concours, des vainqueurs d'une épreuve sportive. *Lauréat = qui a remporté un prix d'honneur, une distinction dans un concours (CNRTL). There is a difference between palmarès ("the best") and classement ("every person who achieved sthg"): Le Figaro publie le palmarès des meilleures écoles d’ingénieurs de France, ainsi que des classements par spécialité. (https://etudiant.lefigaro.fr/article/classement-des-ecoles-d... For information, R+C gives "prize/award/medal winners", "top universities", "most popular programmes". I'm not sure that "meeting minimum requirements" or "group ranking" have the same strength as palmarès.

Jenny Duthie (asker) Mar 14, 2021:

ranking Thanks Conor, I'll send you the document via Proz mail with the name redacted, & yes, it IS a very rare term in this context