Sep 16, 2017 18:59
6 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
pattes mordent le disque
French to English
Art/Literary
Archaeology
mirror assemblage
Hi again!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors. The whole catalog entry. No plate or figure for this one.
CONTEXT: 44061. Disque de miroir. - Cuivre ou bronze. - Haut. 0 m. 173 mill. (0 m. 03 cent. pour la tige), larg. 0 m. 158 mill., épaiss. 0 m. 001 mill. - Mahasnèh, fouilles de Garstang, 1901-1902. Plat, sans ornement ni inscription. La tige est faite de deux pattes juxtaposées, longues de 45 millimètres qui mordent le disque. L'oxydation recouvre le tout d'une couche épaisse. BIBL.: Journal d'entrée du Musée, n° 34881.
DISCLOSURE: I asked at WordReference.com and there was this suggestion from one kind brave soul: limbs/clawed legs that hug/clasp the disk -- but I don't really think it fits.
ATTEMPTS: The tang is made of two juxtaposed limbs/clips/pins/claws, 4.5 cm long, which grip the disk.
ISSUE: This is a doozy, legs/paws that bite!!! I've seen everything from grappling hooks to hinges and lugs in tech dictionaries and ProZ database, nothing seems to fit.
Thanks in advance for any ideas and opinions!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors. The whole catalog entry. No plate or figure for this one.
CONTEXT: 44061. Disque de miroir. - Cuivre ou bronze. - Haut. 0 m. 173 mill. (0 m. 03 cent. pour la tige), larg. 0 m. 158 mill., épaiss. 0 m. 001 mill. - Mahasnèh, fouilles de Garstang, 1901-1902. Plat, sans ornement ni inscription. La tige est faite de deux pattes juxtaposées, longues de 45 millimètres qui mordent le disque. L'oxydation recouvre le tout d'une couche épaisse. BIBL.: Journal d'entrée du Musée, n° 34881.
DISCLOSURE: I asked at WordReference.com and there was this suggestion from one kind brave soul: limbs/clawed legs that hug/clasp the disk -- but I don't really think it fits.
ATTEMPTS: The tang is made of two juxtaposed limbs/clips/pins/claws, 4.5 cm long, which grip the disk.
ISSUE: This is a doozy, legs/paws that bite!!! I've seen everything from grappling hooks to hinges and lugs in tech dictionaries and ProZ database, nothing seems to fit.
Thanks in advance for any ideas and opinions!
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 | two tabs/attachments side by side... that grip the disc |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
|
| 4 | paws grasping the disk of the mirror |
Christopher Crockett
|
Proposed translations
1 day 15 hrs
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
35
French term (edited):
deux pattes juxtaposées ... qui mordent le disque
Selected
two tabs/attachments side by side... that grip the disc
Although "mordre" can mean to encroach upon, to overun a certain limit (e.g. "mordre la ligne centrale" when driving), I think that here there may be an idea of them holding, gripping something in place. I see you have considered that idea already.
I suppose you either have attachments holding something in place or tabs extending beyond a particular edge to hold something in place.
Do you have an illustration?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day15 hrs (2017-09-18 10:10:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Or if it is "mordre" in the sens of overunning a limit, then perhaps an idea of "overlapping onto the disc" may work.
I suppose you either have attachments holding something in place or tabs extending beyond a particular edge to hold something in place.
Do you have an illustration?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day15 hrs (2017-09-18 10:10:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Or if it is "mordre" in the sens of overunning a limit, then perhaps an idea of "overlapping onto the disc" may work.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you! Thanks also to Christopher Crockett for the valuable additional info."
1 day 18 hrs
Christopher Crockett
Native in English
Specializes in field
M.A., Ph.D. Historian/Art Historian
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
131
paws grasping the disk of the mirror
The first question is, is the phrase "deux pattes juxtaposées" to be taken literally (i.e., two animal "paws") or figuratively (two tabs/elements)?
I'm inclined to believe the former is the case --the Egyptians were so imaginative in their ability to impart "organic" elements to non-living entities, thus "animating" them in a remarkable fashion.
Think of the (very frequently found) ANKH sign equipped with a pair of arms with hands, which allows it to interact in the world; or the ends of the rays emanating from the solar disk which terminate in little hands which caress the devotees of the Aton.
I take "juxtaposée" to imply that the paws were symmetrically placed on each side of the disk --probably extending from the handle (which, note, appears to be lacking)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day18 hrs (2017-09-18 13:39:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
As usual, B. does not venture a date for this exemplar, but here's a (surely much later) mirror from Greece which --interestingly enough-- has the disk being held in the paws of two griffins:
http://tinyurl.com/yd9g2kro
http://tinyurl.com/y9mupgsd
The missing(?) handle on our #44061 might have been in something more perishable (like ivory) or more valuable (silver/gold), and might have been in the form of an animal or hybrid creature.
Or the "tang" might have been much simpler in form
http://tinyurl.com/ybps7nhw
the "paws" being the only decoration (much as the "claw feet" are the only vestiges of an animal to be seen on a chair or table).
Whichever might have been the case (and we really can't tell, without seeing the damned thing), I'd go for a literal translation of "pattes" as "paws," with "mordent" implying "gripping firmly" or "grasping."
Clearly, a picture would be worth a thousand words --in any language.
I'm inclined to believe the former is the case --the Egyptians were so imaginative in their ability to impart "organic" elements to non-living entities, thus "animating" them in a remarkable fashion.
Think of the (very frequently found) ANKH sign equipped with a pair of arms with hands, which allows it to interact in the world; or the ends of the rays emanating from the solar disk which terminate in little hands which caress the devotees of the Aton.
I take "juxtaposée" to imply that the paws were symmetrically placed on each side of the disk --probably extending from the handle (which, note, appears to be lacking)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day18 hrs (2017-09-18 13:39:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
As usual, B. does not venture a date for this exemplar, but here's a (surely much later) mirror from Greece which --interestingly enough-- has the disk being held in the paws of two griffins:
http://tinyurl.com/yd9g2kro
http://tinyurl.com/y9mupgsd
The missing(?) handle on our #44061 might have been in something more perishable (like ivory) or more valuable (silver/gold), and might have been in the form of an animal or hybrid creature.
Or the "tang" might have been much simpler in form
http://tinyurl.com/ybps7nhw
the "paws" being the only decoration (much as the "claw feet" are the only vestiges of an animal to be seen on a chair or table).
Whichever might have been the case (and we really can't tell, without seeing the damned thing), I'd go for a literal translation of "pattes" as "paws," with "mordent" implying "gripping firmly" or "grasping."
Clearly, a picture would be worth a thousand words --in any language.
Discussion