Oct 18, 2004 07:37
19 yrs ago
3 viewers *
German term
David Solomons (X)
ambiguity of bis auf
German to English
Other
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
This is really an ambiguity that should not exist -perhaps it only exists in my mind? In a sentence such as "Die Nummer .....entsprach *bis auf die letzten Ziffer* der handschriftlich notierten Fernsprechernummer" does a German mother tongue speaker sense the ambiguity I feel here, or would he/she automatically assume it means "apart from (ie excluding) the last numeral" without feeling that it could possibly also mean "right down to (ie including) the last numeral"?
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +3 | I actually do feel the ambiguity |
Heidi Stone-Schaller
|
| 5 +8 | excluding the last numeral |
LegalTrans D
|
| 4 +1 | no abiguity |
Lydia Molea
|
| 5 | apart from |
ibz
|
| 3 | s.b. |
Elvira Schmid
|
Proposed translations
+3
34 mins
Heidi Stone-Schaller
Native in German
&
English
Works in field
The Power of Words - Always on Time
Native in: English 
, German
Works in: English to German, French to English, German to English, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Selected
I actually do feel the ambiguity
I'm a little surprised that I seem to be the only one for whom the meaning is not immediately evident. As a matter of fact, when I first read your German sentence, I thought it meant "down to the last digit" rather than "with the exception of the last digit." On second thought, I think the second interpretation is however the correct one. There are instances in German where "bis" is used to say "including", let me see if I can come up with some good examples: "etwas bis ins kleinste Detail erläutern", "sie gleichen sich bis aufs Haar" (there are quite a few "googles" for that, compare http://www2.t-online.ch/dyn/c/23/64/90/2364906.html
So yes, I think it's ambiguous, however I believe if the speaker had intended the meaning "down to ..." he might have put "bis hin zu..." in order to rule out any other interpretation.
So yes, I think it's ambiguous, however I believe if the speaker had intended the meaning "down to ..." he might have put "bis hin zu..." in order to rule out any other interpretation.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
CMJ_Trans (X)
: well I'm not a native speaker, so I did not speak up but I instinctively react like you
4 mins
|
| agree |
Eckhard Boehle
: eben, es gibt schon eine leichte Zweideutigkeit - dennoch bedeutet es: "außer der letzten Ziffer"
1 hr
|
| agree |
shineda
: ja, z.B. auch: 'bis auf den Pfennig genau'. 'bis auf' scheint doch mehrere Bedeutungen zu haben.
2 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks to all in this discussion - it was all most useful It was hard to choose whose answer was "most useful", but I chose No 5 because of the various alternatives suggested."
+8
3 mins
LegalTrans D
Türkiye
Türkiye
Native in German
Works in field
Türkiye
Commitment makes the best translations
Native in: German 
Works in: English to German, Persian (Farsi) to German
Related KudoZ points
:
16
excluding the last numeral
MHO as a native speaker - no ambiguity, David.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Barbara Cashin (X)
: Not a native speaker, but I agree
1 min
|
| agree |
Endre Both
1 hr
|
| agree |
gfish
: "bis auf die letzte" - ausschliessend, "bis zur letzen" einschliessend. my feeling as a native speaker ...
1 hr
|
| agree |
Maria Ferstl
1 hr
|
| agree |
Thomas Bollmann
1 hr
|
| agree |
Robin Ward
: Yes, I'm sure it's this (or "digit" instead of "numeral").
2 hrs
|
| agree |
Elvira Stoianov
3 hrs
|
| agree |
Mark Cole
: Doesn't the English phrase "up to and including" imply that "up to" on its own is ambiguous?
1 day 5 hrs
|
+1
3 mins
Lydia Molea
Germany
Germany
Native in German
Works in field
Germany
Quality - Professionalism - Reliability
Native in: German
Works in: English to German, German to English, Spanish to German, and 1 more.
no abiguity
to me, bis auf clearly means excluding the last number.
If the author wanted it to be included, he/she would write
einschließlich der letzten Zahl
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Note added at 4 mins (2004-10-18 07:41:44 GMT)
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umm... ambiguity that is
If the author wanted it to be included, he/she would write
einschließlich der letzten Zahl
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Note added at 4 mins (2004-10-18 07:41:44 GMT)
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umm... ambiguity that is
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Eckhard Boehle
: eben, es gibt schon eine leichte Zweideutigkeit - dennoch bedeutet es: "außer der letzten Ziffer"
1 hr
|
4 mins
apart from
For me there is no ambiguity here: "bis auf die letzte Ziffer" means "apart from".
I would say "... entsprach bis und mit der letzten Ziffer" if I wanted to say "including the last ...".
HTH
Irene
I would say "... entsprach bis und mit der letzten Ziffer" if I wanted to say "including the last ...".
HTH
Irene
5 mins
s.b.
I would say there could be an ambiguity, but it also depends on the writing. If it says:
"Die Nummer entsprach bis auf die letzte Ziffer der..." without comma before bis and after Ziffer, I would feel that the last number is included.
On the other hand, if there is a comma, than I would feel that the last number was not included.
HTH
"Die Nummer entsprach bis auf die letzte Ziffer der..." without comma before bis and after Ziffer, I would feel that the last number is included.
On the other hand, if there is a comma, than I would feel that the last number was not included.
HTH
Discussion