May 28, 2004 12:33
19 yrs ago
7 viewers *
English term

"the same as" or "the same that"

English Other Government / Politics Budgeting
Here is the sentence:

"Once project proposals are received from the public they must be subject to the same evaluation process as/that the ones prepared by the operating units".

What is better here: "the same as" or "the same that" and why?

We are obviously talking comparison here - the evaluation process is no matter what the same - be it for the proposals prepared by the public or by the government units. At the same time the sentence is an extended one. I have a preferred version but I'd like to read your explanations and suggestions first.

Thank you.

Discussion

Non-ProZ.com Jun 2, 2004:
I did not really get the explanations I was looking for. I feel that the answer I have selected was the closest in trying to give some kind of an explanation.

I think there are two ways of putting it:
a) "Once the project proposals are received from the public they must be subject to the same evaluation process as the ones prepared by the operating units".

and

b)"Once project proposals are received from the public they must be subject to the same evaluation process that the ones prepared by the operating units are subject to".

Thank you everybody.

Valeria Verona May 28, 2004:
In the ditionaries and books you checked, did you find something different from "same as"? That is the only correct usage in all books...
Non-ProZ.com May 28, 2004:
I checked the Webster and the Practical English Usage too, please do not bother copying the entries here, especially the pronunciation guide. I would like to have explanations (exactly from the scholars) why it is like this.

Responses

+2
2 hrs
Selected

IF you have 'same one' or 'same + noun,' then use THAT. If 'same' is by itself, then use AS

Some examples:

Today I saw the same policeman that stopped me last week.
This is the same thing that happened yesterday!

BUT: This is the same thing AS WHAT happened yesterday! (less acceptable, but I have heard it come out of native speakers' mouths, even those that would DENY it)

Your answer is the same one that Billy gave.
You answer is the same as the one Billy gave.

Your shirt is the same as mine!
Your shirt is the same one I'm wearing!
Your shirt is the same as one I saw in the store.
Your shirt is the same one that I saw in the store.

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Note added at 2 hrs 44 mins (2004-05-28 15:18:32 GMT)
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YOU CAN ALSO USE \'AS\' EVEN IF YOU HAVE \'SAME + NOUN,\' BUT THEN YOU MUST USE \'AS WHAT\' OR \'AS THE ONE\'



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Note added at 2 hrs 46 mins (2004-05-28 15:20:34 GMT)
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Are you the same as your mother?
Are you the same person that you mother was?

Is he the same person that he used to be?
Is he the same as always?

NOTE: in some of these cases we can also OMIT \'that.\' (although it is perfectly acceptable to leave it in. Witness:

Is he the same person he used to be?
Are you the same person your mother was?

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Note added at 2 hrs 48 mins (2004-05-28 15:22:36 GMT)
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Same as the one I used to have.
Same as what I always did.

Your new method is the same as how you have always done it.
Your new method is the same as always.
Your new method is the same one that you have always used.
Your new method is the same one you have always used.

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Note added at 2 hrs 50 mins (2004-05-28 15:24:18 GMT)
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I argue that all of my examples are entirely correct EXCEPT FOR TYPOS. I did commit a few TYPOS by LEAVING OFF the final \"r\" on the possessive \"your\" in a few examples. Sorry!!!!

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Note added at 2 hrs 52 mins (2004-05-28 15:26:17 GMT)
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If you want a LOOSE RULE to keep in mind if it will help you when you SPEAK english, then I would say this: don\'t put SAME directly in front of THAT. If you want to join SAME with THAT, then you had better put a noun in between them.
Peer comment(s):

agree George Rabel : we still have the same problems that haunted us when we fist met
3 hrs
agree Ana Juliá
18 hrs
Something went wrong...
2 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+3
3 mins
English term (edited): the same as

the same as

..
Peer comment(s):

agree Eva Karpouzi
12 mins
agree Alfa Trans (X)
21 mins
agree Bob Kerns (X)
30 mins
Something went wrong...
+6
3 mins

the same as

Good luck! :-)

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Note added at 4 mins (2004-05-28 12:37:55 GMT)
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Webster\'s says:
8 entries found for same.
To select an entry, click on it.
same[1,adjective]same[2,pronoun]same[3,adverb]boat[1,noun]breathtar[2,transitive verb]time[1,noun]token[1,noun]

Main Entry: 1same
Pronunciation: \'sAm
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse samr; akin to Old High German sama same, Latin simulis like, simul together, at the same time, similis like, sem- one, Greek homos same, hama together, hen-, heis one
1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect -- used with as

Peer comment(s):

agree Vicky Papaprodromou
1 min
Thanks
agree Eva Karpouzi
13 mins
:-)
agree Bob Kerns (X)
31 mins
:-)
agree cmwilliams (X)
1 hr
Thanks
agree Rajan Chopra
2 hrs
agree Java Cafe
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
10 mins

the same as

Use "Same as" when comparing a noun to a noun.
My salary is the same as yours.

Use "Same that" when it is followed by a verb.
My salary is the the same that it used to be.

Once (the) project proposals are received from the public they *shall* (or will) be subject to the same evaluation process *as* the ones prepared by the operating units".
Peer comment(s):

agree Eva Karpouzi
5 mins
Thanx!
neutral Bob Kerns (X) : Even if my salary were the same AS it used to be (which thankfully it isn't) I would NEVER say it is the same THAT it used to be.
29 mins
ok, thanks Bob. but why does Google give 260,000 matches for "same that"? certain wording may eliminate the possibility of using "same as"
disagree RHELLER : please do not quote Google as a justification for grammar - it simply confirms that many people make errors. You are giving Olga very bad advice.
55 mins
thank you. but I wasn't justifying the particular grammatic example with Google. I was justifying the possibility that "same that" as a pair of subsequent words does exist in common usage.
neutral cmwilliams (X) : definitely not 'same that'
1 hr
thank you. please see above
neutral Patrick McKeown : but on the same grounds as Bob, Carol and Rita, and definitiely agree with Rita about using Google as a corroboration tool; I think I'll "plant" a phoney item and see how quickly it gets replicated ... (only half-joking)
2 hrs
thank you. please see above
Something went wrong...
+2
3 mins

the same as

corect usage. I will leave the explanations to the scholars

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Note added at 1 hr 13 mins (2004-05-28 13:46:46 GMT)
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Olga
Not everything in this world has a \"why\".
Why do we have \"2 deer\" and \"2 beers\"?
Perhaps your question does have a high-flying, scholarly, detailed explanation; perhaps not. What seems obvious is that the accepted use is \"the same as\".
Good luck!
Peer comment(s):

agree Eva Karpouzi
12 mins
Thanks~
agree Bob Kerns (X)
30 mins
Thanks~
Something went wrong...
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