May 28, 2004 12:33
20 yrs ago
7 viewers *
English term
Hungary
TRANSLATOR AND INTERPRETER SINCE 1989
Native in: Russian 
Works in: English to Russian, Hungarian to Russian, Russian to English, and 3 more.
"the same as" or "the same that"
English
Other
Government / Politics
Budgeting
Here is the sentence:
"Once project proposals are received from the public they must be subject to the same evaluation process as/that the ones prepared by the operating units".
What is better here: "the same as" or "the same that" and why?
We are obviously talking comparison here - the evaluation process is no matter what the same - be it for the proposals prepared by the public or by the government units. At the same time the sentence is an extended one. I have a preferred version but I'd like to read your explanations and suggestions first.
Thank you.
"Once project proposals are received from the public they must be subject to the same evaluation process as/that the ones prepared by the operating units".
What is better here: "the same as" or "the same that" and why?
We are obviously talking comparison here - the evaluation process is no matter what the same - be it for the proposals prepared by the public or by the government units. At the same time the sentence is an extended one. I have a preferred version but I'd like to read your explanations and suggestions first.
Thank you.
Responses
Responses
+2
2 hrs
Selected
IF you have 'same one' or 'same + noun,' then use THAT. If 'same' is by itself, then use AS
Some examples:
Today I saw the same policeman that stopped me last week.
This is the same thing that happened yesterday!
BUT: This is the same thing AS WHAT happened yesterday! (less acceptable, but I have heard it come out of native speakers' mouths, even those that would DENY it)
Your answer is the same one that Billy gave.
You answer is the same as the one Billy gave.
Your shirt is the same as mine!
Your shirt is the same one I'm wearing!
Your shirt is the same as one I saw in the store.
Your shirt is the same one that I saw in the store.
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Note added at 2 hrs 44 mins (2004-05-28 15:18:32 GMT)
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YOU CAN ALSO USE \'AS\' EVEN IF YOU HAVE \'SAME + NOUN,\' BUT THEN YOU MUST USE \'AS WHAT\' OR \'AS THE ONE\'
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Note added at 2 hrs 46 mins (2004-05-28 15:20:34 GMT)
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Are you the same as your mother?
Are you the same person that you mother was?
Is he the same person that he used to be?
Is he the same as always?
NOTE: in some of these cases we can also OMIT \'that.\' (although it is perfectly acceptable to leave it in. Witness:
Is he the same person he used to be?
Are you the same person your mother was?
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Note added at 2 hrs 48 mins (2004-05-28 15:22:36 GMT)
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Same as the one I used to have.
Same as what I always did.
Your new method is the same as how you have always done it.
Your new method is the same as always.
Your new method is the same one that you have always used.
Your new method is the same one you have always used.
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Note added at 2 hrs 50 mins (2004-05-28 15:24:18 GMT)
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I argue that all of my examples are entirely correct EXCEPT FOR TYPOS. I did commit a few TYPOS by LEAVING OFF the final \"r\" on the possessive \"your\" in a few examples. Sorry!!!!
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Note added at 2 hrs 52 mins (2004-05-28 15:26:17 GMT)
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If you want a LOOSE RULE to keep in mind if it will help you when you SPEAK english, then I would say this: don\'t put SAME directly in front of THAT. If you want to join SAME with THAT, then you had better put a noun in between them.
Today I saw the same policeman that stopped me last week.
This is the same thing that happened yesterday!
BUT: This is the same thing AS WHAT happened yesterday! (less acceptable, but I have heard it come out of native speakers' mouths, even those that would DENY it)
Your answer is the same one that Billy gave.
You answer is the same as the one Billy gave.
Your shirt is the same as mine!
Your shirt is the same one I'm wearing!
Your shirt is the same as one I saw in the store.
Your shirt is the same one that I saw in the store.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 44 mins (2004-05-28 15:18:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
YOU CAN ALSO USE \'AS\' EVEN IF YOU HAVE \'SAME + NOUN,\' BUT THEN YOU MUST USE \'AS WHAT\' OR \'AS THE ONE\'
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 46 mins (2004-05-28 15:20:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Are you the same as your mother?
Are you the same person that you mother was?
Is he the same person that he used to be?
Is he the same as always?
NOTE: in some of these cases we can also OMIT \'that.\' (although it is perfectly acceptable to leave it in. Witness:
Is he the same person he used to be?
Are you the same person your mother was?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 48 mins (2004-05-28 15:22:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Same as the one I used to have.
Same as what I always did.
Your new method is the same as how you have always done it.
Your new method is the same as always.
Your new method is the same one that you have always used.
Your new method is the same one you have always used.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 50 mins (2004-05-28 15:24:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I argue that all of my examples are entirely correct EXCEPT FOR TYPOS. I did commit a few TYPOS by LEAVING OFF the final \"r\" on the possessive \"your\" in a few examples. Sorry!!!!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 52 mins (2004-05-28 15:26:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
If you want a LOOSE RULE to keep in mind if it will help you when you SPEAK english, then I would say this: don\'t put SAME directly in front of THAT. If you want to join SAME with THAT, then you had better put a noun in between them.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
George Rabel
: we still have the same problems that haunted us when we fist met
3 hrs
|
| agree |
Ana Juliá
18 hrs
|
2 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+3
3 mins
maria sgourou
Greece
Greece
Greece
translation | transcreation | content
Native in: Greek
Works in: Italian to Greek, Greek to Italian, English to Greek, and 2 more.
English term (edited):
the same as
the same as
..
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Eva Karpouzi
12 mins
|
| agree |
Alfa Trans (X)
21 mins
|
| agree |
Bob Kerns (X)
30 mins
|
+6
3 mins
Valeria Verona
Chile
Chile
Chile
Your reliable LatAm Spanish partner
Native in: Spanish (Variant: Latin American) 
Works in: English to Spanish, Portuguese to Spanish, Spanish
the same as
Good luck! :-)
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Note added at 4 mins (2004-05-28 12:37:55 GMT)
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Webster\'s says:
8 entries found for same.
To select an entry, click on it.
same[1,adjective]same[2,pronoun]same[3,adverb]boat[1,noun]breathtar[2,transitive verb]time[1,noun]token[1,noun]
Main Entry: 1same
Pronunciation: \'sAm
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse samr; akin to Old High German sama same, Latin simulis like, simul together, at the same time, similis like, sem- one, Greek homos same, hama together, hen-, heis one
1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect -- used with as
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Note added at 4 mins (2004-05-28 12:37:55 GMT)
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Webster\'s says:
8 entries found for same.
To select an entry, click on it.
same[1,adjective]same[2,pronoun]same[3,adverb]boat[1,noun]breathtar[2,transitive verb]time[1,noun]token[1,noun]
Main Entry: 1same
Pronunciation: \'sAm
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse samr; akin to Old High German sama same, Latin simulis like, simul together, at the same time, similis like, sem- one, Greek homos same, hama together, hen-, heis one
1 a : resembling in every relevant respect b : conforming in every respect -- used with as
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Vicky Papaprodromou
1 min
|
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Thanks
|
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| agree |
Eva Karpouzi
13 mins
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:-)
|
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| agree |
Bob Kerns (X)
31 mins
|
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:-)
|
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| agree |
cmwilliams (X)
1 hr
|
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Thanks
|
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| agree |
Rajan Chopra
2 hrs
|
| agree |
Java Cafe
3 hrs
|
10 mins
Mikhail Kropotov
Germany
Germany
Works in field
Germany
US-educated, precise & thorough
Native in: Russian
Works in: English to Russian, Russian to English, Russian
Related KudoZ points
:
4
the same as
Use "Same as" when comparing a noun to a noun.
My salary is the same as yours.
Use "Same that" when it is followed by a verb.
My salary is the the same that it used to be.
Once (the) project proposals are received from the public they *shall* (or will) be subject to the same evaluation process *as* the ones prepared by the operating units".
My salary is the same as yours.
Use "Same that" when it is followed by a verb.
My salary is the the same that it used to be.
Once (the) project proposals are received from the public they *shall* (or will) be subject to the same evaluation process *as* the ones prepared by the operating units".
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Eva Karpouzi
5 mins
|
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Thanx!
|
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| neutral |
Bob Kerns (X)
: Even if my salary were the same AS it used to be (which thankfully it isn't) I would NEVER say it is the same THAT it used to be.
29 mins
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ok, thanks Bob. but why does Google give 260,000 matches for "same that"? certain wording may eliminate the possibility of using "same as"
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| disagree |
RHELLER
: please do not quote Google as a justification for grammar - it simply confirms that many people make errors. You are giving Olga very bad advice.
55 mins
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thank you. but I wasn't justifying the particular grammatic example with Google. I was justifying the possibility that "same that" as a pair of subsequent words does exist in common usage.
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| neutral |
cmwilliams (X)
: definitely not 'same that'
1 hr
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thank you. please see above
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| neutral |
Patrick McKeown
: but on the same grounds as Bob, Carol and Rita, and definitiely agree with Rita about using Google as a corroboration tool; I think I'll "plant" a phoney item and see how quickly it gets replicated ... (only half-joking)
2 hrs
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thank you. please see above
|
+2
3 mins
George Rabel
Works in field
TRANSLATIONS THAT READ LIKE ORIGINALS
Native in: Spanish
Works in: English to Spanish, Spanish, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
the same as
corect usage. I will leave the explanations to the scholars
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Note added at 1 hr 13 mins (2004-05-28 13:46:46 GMT)
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Olga
Not everything in this world has a \"why\".
Why do we have \"2 deer\" and \"2 beers\"?
Perhaps your question does have a high-flying, scholarly, detailed explanation; perhaps not. What seems obvious is that the accepted use is \"the same as\".
Good luck!
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Note added at 1 hr 13 mins (2004-05-28 13:46:46 GMT)
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Olga
Not everything in this world has a \"why\".
Why do we have \"2 deer\" and \"2 beers\"?
Perhaps your question does have a high-flying, scholarly, detailed explanation; perhaps not. What seems obvious is that the accepted use is \"the same as\".
Good luck!
Discussion
I think there are two ways of putting it:
a) "Once the project proposals are received from the public they must be subject to the same evaluation process as the ones prepared by the operating units".
and
b)"Once project proposals are received from the public they must be subject to the same evaluation process that the ones prepared by the operating units are subject to".
Thank you everybody.