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chefs de dispositif

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

rapport entre X par Y

English translation:

ratio of X to Y (but see the full discussion as regards this particular question)

Added to glossary by Conor McAuley
Apr 11, 2023 08:55
1 yr ago
35 viewers *
French term

rapport entre X par Y

French to English Law/Patents Law (general)
Memorandum and articles. Complicated stuff to do with founders' special entitlements.

"Par exception, dans un délai de trente jours à compter de l’Assemblée Générale approuvant les comptes d’un exercice écoulé et constatant que le montant total des Capitaux Propres Nets à la clôture de l’exercice est au moins deux fois supérieur au montant total de la somme de toutes les créances dont la Société serait débitrice vis-à-vis des Associés (les « Créances »), tout Associé peut Notifier à la Société une demande de remboursement de tout ou partie desdites créances que la Société pourra réaliser dans un délai de trois (3) mois à compter de la réception de ladite demande et sous réserve que postérieurement aux remboursements demandés, le montant des Capitaux Propres Nets soit au moins une fois et demie supérieur à la Dette Nette résiduelle. En cas de demandes de remboursement émanant de plusieurs Associés, le montant global remboursé à tous les Associés sera limité par le seuil établi ci-dessus et chaque Associé percevra le produit (i) du montant global des créances à rembourser par la Société du chef des demandes des Associés et (ii) du rapport entre le montant de leurs créances respectives par le montant global de toutes les créances détenues par les Associés contre la Société à la clôture de l’exercice écoulé."

To me this looks like "ratio of X **to** Y". Or putting it another way, "montant des créances à rembourser divisé par montant global de toutes les créances".

And "produit" here I think means "product of multiplication" rather than simply "proceeds". So the amount received is (i) above multiplied by the ratio explained in (ii).

"Rapport entre X par Y" doesn't seem to be very literate/numerate drafting. Hence my seeking of views from my learned consoeurs et confrères.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 ratio of X to Y
5 +1 the ratio between X and Y
3 ratio between the amount of each of their claims
Change log

Apr 25, 2023 12:29: Conor McAuley Created KOG entry

Discussion

SafeTex Apr 16, 2023:
Ratio between or ratio of Hello everyone

Having said in my agree with Conor that "ratio of" is the only correct structure, I came across "ratio between" today (alarm bells)

So I had another look and found, much to my surprise, many hits for "ratio between"
But when I looked at a number of them, they are all like:

Density is the ratio between mass and volume

or

What is the ratio between 2 3?

or

the quantitative relation between two amounts showing the number of times one value contains or is contained within the other.

They are all explanations of the RELATIONSHIP between 2+ things or if you prefer, how ratios work.

But when actually CALCULATING the ratio between 2+ things, English grammar dictates

"the ratio of X to Y

Just an addendum to cover my arse 😊
ph-b (X) Apr 11, 2023:
I'm not implying anything impolitely. Of course I could tell you that "You need to look this up in an appropriate dictionary." (https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/general-convers... That would be rude.

If you did look up produit in a dictionary, you'd get this: II.
A. − MATHÉMATIQUES 1. Nombre qui est le résultat d'une multiplication.

I'm just telling you that you're misreading the sentence and that, as a consequence, you parsed your question incorrectly. That's not being impolite.

As for rapport, it's in the singular. I'm reliably told that if this rapport is always the same (rapport constant, hence the singular), whatever the number of associates, you can multiply (produit) a montant by a rapport.

I've no idea whether this is an accurate description of what goes on between these people and the company in question, but this is what your text says and it needs to be translated accordingly. Any issue with the text is the client's responsibility, not the translator's.
Mpoma (asker) Apr 11, 2023:
@ph-b Now you seem to be implying, impolitely, that you have no answer to my problems with your parsing.
Mpoma (asker) Apr 11, 2023:
@ph-b Justement, je cherche à comprendre ce que vous entendez...

Il semblerait que vous dites que, pour vous, le rapport ici est celui "entre leurs créances respectives".

Plutôt que "entre a) leurs créances respectives et b) le montant global de toutes les créances".

Mais il y a 2 problèmes avec cette analyse :
- d'une part, un rapport mathématique doit être entre 2 quantités, ni plus ni moins. Mais il pourrait y avoir 3 ou plus associés en question.
- d'autre part, pour moi, dans ce cas, il aurait fallu dire "divisé par". "Par", tout seul, ne semble pas suffire pour préciser cette analyse grammaticale.
ph-b (X) Apr 11, 2023:
Mpoma, I've no idea what you're talking about. Not the first time either.
I'm no maths boffin, just a linguist. I look at a text in my own language and tell non-natives how it's structured and what it means.
They can then draw their own conclusion(s).
Mpoma (asker) Apr 11, 2023:
@ph-b I'm not completely clear what you're saying about the mathematical formula here.

Are you saying that it is saying "multiply (i) and (ii) ("le rapport")... and then **divided by** ("par") montant global de toutes..."?

It would perhaps tend to make the drafting slightly more literate. Except that wouldn't it then be necessary to say "**divisé** par" not just "par"?
Bourth Apr 11, 2023:
numerical vs literary maths I think the standard expression is rapport de x à Y. That works very well with numerals (apart from anything you don't get the au(x) and du (des) forms of à/de) but if you have a long string of words defining the numerals, then you get all kinds of confusion over prepositions. So I expect they have used entre ... par to 'separate out' the confusion.

Another thing with the French that disturbs me is "le produit (i) du... et (ii) du". It's like us saying "the product of the ... and of the" - I think we would use only one 'of'. Again, it's a case of 'literary vs numerical maths': the ratio of le produit de x et y to le produit de x et de y as evidenced by Google is 7,650:1.
ph-b (X) Apr 11, 2023:
« par » renvoie au produit (produit de... par...) : le produit (i) du montant global des... et (ii) du rapport... par le montant global...

Not seeing this leads to wrong parsing.

EDIT: Another way of looking at it which could make it easier to understand: le produit de la somme de (i) et (ii) par le montant global...
Mpoma (asker) Apr 11, 2023:
@Tony Yes, X divided by Y. But isn't that synonymous with "ratio of X to Y"? Seems to be suggested here: https://www.mathplanet.com/education/algebra-1/how-to-solve-... .

However, you know your onions mathematically, so I have doubts now. Is is possible there is a strict scientific/engineering way of expressing a ratio using "to", and a more generally accepted way?
Tony M Apr 11, 2023:
@ Asker Instinctively, I'd have thought it would be the opposite: the ratio of X divided by Y — in other words, their percentage share of the total debt liability.
This would better explain the use of 'par' ('divisé par'), just as in EN we might say X over Y.
Surely this would be logical with a threshold value that cannot exceed their percentage share of the debt?

Proposed translations

+4
27 mins
Selected

ratio of X to Y

In

"rapport entre le montant de leurs créances respectives par"

the author has mixed up two ideas, ratio of, and divided by, but in any case, you end up with proportions, percentages, or fractions of a total amount, which allow you to apportion said total amount.

The easiest way to think about it is total amount divided by the shareholders'/partners' pro rata entitlements.

The author has made it sound more complicated than it is through poor writing and poor conceptualisation of the idea before trying to describe it, at the proto/ideas stage.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 34 mins (2023-04-11 09:30:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Asker's note: no need to bring God into it, he's busy enough as it is.

I think it's "Buiochas le Dia" anyway, no offence, but it has been more than 30 years in fairness to me.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2023-04-11 10:22:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Back to basics for ph-b:

Produit (mathématiques)

Wikipedia
https://fr.wikipedia.org › wiki › Pro...
·
Translate this page
On nomme produit de nombres entiers, réels, complexes ou autres le résultat de leur multiplication.


Bourth in his discussion entry is quite funny and spot-on, as often is the case.

Often French texts set out such things as a formula, X over Y, this would have been a better option here.

You would get:

Total divided by 100 multiplied by the percentage share of a given shareholder/partner.

The explanation here is like running the wrong way around the track to get to the 100 metres race finish line!!!


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2023-04-11 10:29:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

So, to summarise, I would go down the formula route, preferably.

If you really want to stick to the really messy "maths in words route", step back from the tortured French completely, and completely re-structure it, re-write it.
Note from asker:
Buíochas de Día leis an confirmation.
You're right, I messed up completely, amach is amach! I think I said "Thanks from God", but not entirely sure.
Peer comment(s):
agree AllegroTrans : I have often found that French text (even legal) confuses percentages and fractions
36 mins
Thanks Chris! / To grossly and unfairly simplify and stereotype, techies can't write properly, people who can write can't understand tech to save their lives (me!), and legal beagles can't do maths?
neutral ph-b (X) : I'm afraid you've misunderstood the French text: go back to how the sentence is organised: produit... de... et de... par... [Changed to "neutral"] You may be answering the q as asked, but it's parsed incorrectly to start with.
45 mins
The only thing that's entirely clear is that you can't multiply an amount by a ratio, so I think we can agree that the lawyer involved needs a very big kick up the behind and some retraining!
agree philgoddard
2 hrs
Thanks Phil, I appreciate it! I think "Total ÷ 100 x percentage share of total" is, very simply, what it basically is, in the end.
agree Andrew Bramhall : If the question was incorrectly parsed from the outset, that ain't Conor's fault! We can only translate what's in front of us; improving the original isn't our job.
5 hrs
Thanks Andrew! / Improving is NOT our job, and many people in the industry make that mistake. A good translation always reveals instances of poor writing, and clients do not like that! Several examples: the clowns at Bpifrance, Ubiqus (now defunct), etc.
agree SafeTex : If "ratio" is indeed correct, and all answerers seem to thnk that it is, (whether the question is correctly parsed or not) this is the only construction that is allowed in English with "ratio"
1 day 5 hrs
Thanks SafeTex!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
3 hrs
French term (edited): rapport entre le montant de leurs créances respectives

ratio between the amount of each of their claims

... par le montant global de toutes les créances détenues par les Associés contre la Société à la clôture de l’exercice écoulé." - (per Ph-b?) as divided by the sum-total of all the claims (receivables) held by the *Members / Partners* against the *PARTNERSHIP* at the close of the accounting ref. period (financial year if def. 12 months - otherwise a 'stub period').

The question could have been reformulated.

1. Again and de novo, it's *not* a Memo & Arts of Assoc. of a ltd. co., rather - from my own legal drafting experience - must be an Articles of Partnership, Partnership Arts or Partnership Deed scenario.

2, otherwise, créances détenues par les Associés contre la Société à la clôture de l’exercice écoulé." cannot mean the Shareholders holding claims agains the Co. - it is, as we say at te Bar - a logical fallacy, but members or partners holding claims against the Partnership itself, whether, ord., gen. or an LLP.

3. produit can also mean proceeds, though - mathematically in the context, product seems right.
Example sentence:

When bringing a claim against a Partnership, the claim must be in name of the Partnership.

Reference:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=claims%20held%20by%20partners%20against%20the%20partnership&form=ANNTH1

Something went wrong...
+1
9 hrs
French term (edited): le rapport entre X et Y

the ratio between X and Y

There is a glaring mistake in the way how the ST was worded.

Due to a confusion between "diviser X par Y" and "calculer le rapport entre X et Y"

(ii) du rapport entre le montant de leurs créances respectives par le montant global de toutes les créances détenues par les Associés contre la Société à la clôture de l’exercice écoulé."
=
(ii) du rapport entre [le montant de leurs créances respectives] ***et*** [le montant global de toutes les créances détenues par les Associés contre la Société à la clôture de l’exercice écoulé]."

OR

(ii) du rapport ***calculé en divisant*** [le montant de leurs créances respectives] par [le montant global de toutes les créances détenues par les Associés contre la Société à la clôture de l’exercice écoulé]."

The ST is a mish-mash of these two correct versions: the conflated "rapport entre X par Y" is pure unadulterated mathematical nonsense.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2023-04-11 18:09:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

En cas de demandes de remboursement émanant de plusieurs Associés, le montant global remboursé à tous les Associés sera limité par le seuil établi ci-dessus et chaque Associé percevra le produit (i) du montant global des créances à rembourser par la Société du chef des demandes des Associés et (ii) du rapport entre le montant de leurs créances respectives par le montant global de toutes les créances détenues par les Associés contre la Société à la clôture de l’exercice écoulé."

=>

what each Associés will get will be calculated by multiplying

(i) montant global des créances à rembourser (= an amount of money)

by a ratio (= a proportion, a dimensionless number) calculated as

(ii) rapport entre [le montant de leurs créances respectives] ***et*** [le montant global de toutes les créances détenues par les Associés contre la Société à la clôture de l’exercice écoulé]."

which (ii) could be alternatively defined as

(ii) rapport ***calculé en divisant*** [le montant de leurs créances respectives] par [le montant global de toutes les créances détenues par les Associés contre la Société à la clôture de l’exercice écoulé]."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2023-04-15 22:23:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

practical result:

chaque Associé percevra:

le produit
(i) du montant global des créances à rembourser par la Société du chef des demandes des Associés
et
(ii) du rapport entre (le montant de leurs créances respectives) et (le montant global de toutes les créances détenues par les Associés contre la Société à la clôture de l’exercice écoulé)."

(i) is an amount of money, (ii) is a ratio => the product of the two is an amount of money => makes sense

this ratio shows the participation of an individual Associé in the total amount of "créances de la Société envers l'ensemble des Associés"

so if one Associé holds 5% of all "créances de la Société envers l'ensemble des Associés", that Associé will get 5% of "le montant global remboursé à tous les Associés" [which is in fact the "allowed total of all payments"].

So the payment might not be the full "requested amount" - see: "le montant global remboursé à tous les Associés sera limité par le seuil établi ci-dessus"

IOW if "le montant global remboursé à tous les Associés" is less than the total of "créances de la Société envers l'ensemble des Associés" (as it must be given the way it's calculated) then a single Associé holding 5% of all "créances de la Société envers l'ensemble des Associés" will not be paid his/her "créance" in full, only an amount limited to no more than 5% of "le montant global remboursé à tous les Associés" (i.e. the allowable total for all payments).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2023-04-15 22:31:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

if you analyse the whole text carefully, the "par" in "rapport entre X par Y" is obviously out of place AND it does make sense - real life sense, not only grammatically.
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : I don't know why you've gone to all the trouble of restating Conor's answer.
1 hr
Did you notice the slight difference in the explanation? Of course not, it's not "simplified" enough ...
neutral AllegroTrans : Moi non plus; "between" is confusing in any case
2 hrs
There is nothing confusing - "ratio between X and Y" is as much used + more important: I added a clear explanation ***of the whole calculation*** - not much point having the right term if you insert it in the sentence the wrong way, wouldn't you think?
agree Angelina Galanska
5 days
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