Nov 19, 2021 10:49
2 yrs ago
39 viewers *
French term
United Kingdom
35 years in the translation business
Native in: English 
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English, Italian to English, and 1 more.
grand/petit inventaire
French to English
Law/Patents
Law: Contract(s)
Swiss commercial lease
Still having problems with the Swiss French in this document. It refers to "grand inventaire" and "petit inventaire" in several places in the lease. Are these large stock items and small stock items? I can't find any hits for large and small inventory. It may be a usage specific to Switzerland, but possibly not. Here is the current sentence I am translating:
Les obligations des parties consistant à assurer l'entretien et à prendre en charge les frais correspon-dants sont décrites de manière plus détaillée dans l’annexe « Plans d'ensemble des bâtiments et de-scriptif de l’hôtel“ (Annexe 1) et la liste du grand inventaire et du petit inventaire (FF&E, OS&E et IT, Annexe 3).
Thanks to those who have already helped with this document :)
Les obligations des parties consistant à assurer l'entretien et à prendre en charge les frais correspon-dants sont décrites de manière plus détaillée dans l’annexe « Plans d'ensemble des bâtiments et de-scriptif de l’hôtel“ (Annexe 1) et la liste du grand inventaire et du petit inventaire (FF&E, OS&E et IT, Annexe 3).
Thanks to those who have already helped with this document :)
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+3
5 hrs
Steve Robbie
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Works in field
United Kingdom
Expertise, accuracy and style
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English, Dutch to English
Related KudoZ points
:
8
Selected
FF&E, OS&E et IT
The answer might be staring us in the face.
If we agree that grand inventaire = Grossinventar and petit inventaire = Kleininventar, then this might be illuminating:
Beschaffung FF&E / OS&E / IT
Für Ihr Projekt beschaffen wir das gesamte Grossinventar (FF&E), Kleininventar (OS&E) und die Informatik (IT).
https://www.hospitalityprojects.ch/de/Leistungen
Because it translates as:
We source the entire “grossinventar” (FF&E), “kleininventar” (OS&E) and IT for your project.
… and the source text seems to equate grand inventaire with FF&E and petit inventaire with OS&E in pretty much the same way (although it tosses the IT in with everything else).
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Note added at 5 hrs (2021-11-19 16:28:43 GMT)
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The thing to grasp here is that it's not particularly about "doing" an inventory - "big inventory" just means the larger items and "small inventory" just means smaller stuff.
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Note added at 6 hrs (2021-11-19 17:03:30 GMT)
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Here’s a description of the two categories in German, with a rough-and-ready translation by me. I think the descriptions broadly match up to FF&E vs. OS&E as described in Conor's link.
Das Kücheninventar wird unterteilt in Klein- und Großinventar. Werden Pachtverträge in der Gastronomie abgeschlossen, ist es sehr wichtig darauf zu achten, was an Inventar bereitgestellt wird und was nicht. Nicht alle Küchengeräte lassen sich eindeutig unterteilen in Klein- und Großinventar. Deshalb ist es ratsam alle Dinge, die zum Inventar gehören einzeln im Vertrag aufzuschlüsseln. So können im nach hinein keine Missverständnisse entstehen. Im Allgemeinen gehören zum Kleininventar alle kleineren Küchengebrauchsgegenstände wie z.B. Töpfe, Pfannen, Messer, Werkzeuge (Kellen, Schaufeln, Schneebesen, Zangen, Spezialgeschirr), Anrichtegeschirr und Küchenutensilien (Bleche, Schüsseln, Siebe, Formen). Zum Großinventar gehören alle größeren Küchengeräte wie z.B. Kochherd, Grill, Umluftofen, Dampfdruckgargerät, Kippkochkessel, Friteuse, Brat- und Backofen.
Kitchen inventory is divided into “small” and “large” inventory. When leases are agreed in catering, it is very important to pay attention to what inventory is provided and what not. Not all kitchen equipment can be clearly categorised as “small” or “large” inventory. It is therefore advisable to list all items that belong to the inventory individually in the contract. This prevents misunderstandings from arising later on. Generally, the “small inventory” includes all kitchen items in daily use such as pots, pans, knives, tools (…), tableware and kitchen utensils (…). The “large inventory” includes all larger items of kitchen equipment, e.g. hob, grill, fan oven…
https://hotel.fandom.com/de/wiki/Kücheninventur
If we agree that grand inventaire = Grossinventar and petit inventaire = Kleininventar, then this might be illuminating:
Beschaffung FF&E / OS&E / IT
Für Ihr Projekt beschaffen wir das gesamte Grossinventar (FF&E), Kleininventar (OS&E) und die Informatik (IT).
https://www.hospitalityprojects.ch/de/Leistungen
Because it translates as:
We source the entire “grossinventar” (FF&E), “kleininventar” (OS&E) and IT for your project.
… and the source text seems to equate grand inventaire with FF&E and petit inventaire with OS&E in pretty much the same way (although it tosses the IT in with everything else).
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2021-11-19 16:28:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The thing to grasp here is that it's not particularly about "doing" an inventory - "big inventory" just means the larger items and "small inventory" just means smaller stuff.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2021-11-19 17:03:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here’s a description of the two categories in German, with a rough-and-ready translation by me. I think the descriptions broadly match up to FF&E vs. OS&E as described in Conor's link.
Das Kücheninventar wird unterteilt in Klein- und Großinventar. Werden Pachtverträge in der Gastronomie abgeschlossen, ist es sehr wichtig darauf zu achten, was an Inventar bereitgestellt wird und was nicht. Nicht alle Küchengeräte lassen sich eindeutig unterteilen in Klein- und Großinventar. Deshalb ist es ratsam alle Dinge, die zum Inventar gehören einzeln im Vertrag aufzuschlüsseln. So können im nach hinein keine Missverständnisse entstehen. Im Allgemeinen gehören zum Kleininventar alle kleineren Küchengebrauchsgegenstände wie z.B. Töpfe, Pfannen, Messer, Werkzeuge (Kellen, Schaufeln, Schneebesen, Zangen, Spezialgeschirr), Anrichtegeschirr und Küchenutensilien (Bleche, Schüsseln, Siebe, Formen). Zum Großinventar gehören alle größeren Küchengeräte wie z.B. Kochherd, Grill, Umluftofen, Dampfdruckgargerät, Kippkochkessel, Friteuse, Brat- und Backofen.
Kitchen inventory is divided into “small” and “large” inventory. When leases are agreed in catering, it is very important to pay attention to what inventory is provided and what not. Not all kitchen equipment can be clearly categorised as “small” or “large” inventory. It is therefore advisable to list all items that belong to the inventory individually in the contract. This prevents misunderstandings from arising later on. Generally, the “small inventory” includes all kitchen items in daily use such as pots, pans, knives, tools (…), tableware and kitchen utensils (…). The “large inventory” includes all larger items of kitchen equipment, e.g. hob, grill, fan oven…
https://hotel.fandom.com/de/wiki/Kücheninventur
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: Just to clarify, Conor's link says FFE is furniture, fixtures and equipment, and OS&E is operating supplies and equipment. I would not use these abbreviations, as most people won't know what they mean.
3 hrs
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| agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
18 hrs
|
| agree |
AllegroTrans
: This makes an excellent reference but should be in the "post reference" section
1 day 1 hr
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
1 hr
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
86
valued bulk-items inventory / SOE: operating equipment with going-concern valuation, CH
My tactic is to translate Swiss-French 'back' into German, Italian or even 'Rheto-vs. Rhesus Romansh', as a result of which the picture often becomes far more complicated and counter-intuitive.
CH: Das Mietinventar wird ohne Bewertung aufgeführt. *The rental / franchise inventory is listed without any valuation* Dieses wird vom Vermieter dem neuen Mieter leihweise zur Verfügung gestellt, wie z.B. : This is lent / loaned by the Landlord/-lady to the incoming tenant, such for example:
Mobiliargegenstände Maschinen und Apparate fest montiert > fixtures + fittings plus fixed assets
Beleuchtungskörper etc. light fittings etc,
Das *Grossinventar* ist eine Aufnahme mit Bewertung und ist identisch mit dem Mietinventar. Es wird vom Vermieter leihweise zur Verfügung gestellt. 'main bulk-items inventory is a record *including* a valuation and identical to the rental / franchise inventory. Such will be made available on loan by the Lessor '.
Das *Kleininventar* ist eine neutrale Aufnahme mit Bewertung zu Fortführungswerten. Der Kaufvertrag wird zwischen den Parteien selbst vereinbart. 'the small-items inventory is a neutral record including valuation at going-concern values. The contract of sale / UK Solicitor's translation > literally of purchase > is agreed between the between the parties themselves.
CH: Das Mietinventar wird ohne Bewertung aufgeführt. *The rental / franchise inventory is listed without any valuation* Dieses wird vom Vermieter dem neuen Mieter leihweise zur Verfügung gestellt, wie z.B. : This is lent / loaned by the Landlord/-lady to the incoming tenant, such for example:
Mobiliargegenstände Maschinen und Apparate fest montiert > fixtures + fittings plus fixed assets
Beleuchtungskörper etc. light fittings etc,
Das *Grossinventar* ist eine Aufnahme mit Bewertung und ist identisch mit dem Mietinventar. Es wird vom Vermieter leihweise zur Verfügung gestellt. 'main bulk-items inventory is a record *including* a valuation and identical to the rental / franchise inventory. Such will be made available on loan by the Lessor '.
Das *Kleininventar* ist eine neutrale Aufnahme mit Bewertung zu Fortführungswerten. Der Kaufvertrag wird zwischen den Parteien selbst vereinbart. 'the small-items inventory is a neutral record including valuation at going-concern values. The contract of sale / UK Solicitor's translation > literally of purchase > is agreed between the between the parties themselves.
Example sentence:
Das gesamte feste (FF) sowie bewegliche Inventar (FF & E) und das Kleininventar (SOE) [...] feuring.com [...] (FF & E) as well as all small operating equipment (SOE)
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
philgoddard
: You may be right that it's mistranslated from German, but your translation and explanation might just as well be in Sanskrit.
56 mins
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The concepts don't, subject to Steve R.'s abbreviations code, lend themselves to facile one-word translations.
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| neutral |
Daryo
: agree entirely with your method, seeing "grand/petit inventaire" as calque for "Kleininventar / Grossinventar" sounds eminently plausible, but my German is too thin to have any idea if your translation is right or not.
2 hrs
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Then best keep off grading...
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| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: Even if you are on the right track, your translation seems far too convoluted for the translation of a mere three words
3 hrs
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The concepts don't, subject to Steve R.'s abbreviations code, lend themselves to facile one-word translations.
|
-1
15 mins
Conor McAuley
France
France
Native in English
Specializes in field
France
Excellence, Expertise & Experience
Native in: English (Variants: Irish, British, Wales / Welsh, UK, Scottish)
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
101
full/partial inventory of fixtures and fittings
See discussion entries and link.
Sounds more like this than an inventory of products. It could also be a mix of the two types of inventories, then you will have to add "inventory of products" in to your term.
Perhaps a borrowing from the English, because in French (France) this is "état des lieux".
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Note added at 5 hrs (2021-11-19 16:35:36 GMT)
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On the basis of the new material from other posters, to bring it all together, my suggestions would now be:
inventory of small items of equipment/inventory of large items of equipment
(Small inventory/big inventory sounds a bit like children's language, in my view.)
Sounds more like this than an inventory of products. It could also be a mix of the two types of inventories, then you will have to add "inventory of products" in to your term.
Perhaps a borrowing from the English, because in French (France) this is "état des lieux".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2021-11-19 16:35:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
On the basis of the new material from other posters, to bring it all together, my suggestions would now be:
inventory of small items of equipment/inventory of large items of equipment
(Small inventory/big inventory sounds a bit like children's language, in my view.)
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Daryo
: this contradicts your own references, that in themselves seem relevant. // + "full/partial inventory" makes little sense - no landlord/tenant would do a "partial" inventory of anything - if worth doing, any "inventory" would be comprehensive.
4 hrs
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| neutral |
Steve Robbie
: More likely a borrowing from German, as is often the case in Switzerland
5 hrs
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I'm not an expert on CH, but I found this, may or may not be right: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/german-to-spanish/law-contracts/6...
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| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: Won't post disagree as you have retracted in favour of small/large items
1 day 6 hrs
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I don't have any time to look into the question further, to be honest, very busy.
|
+1
18 hrs
large items/small items inventory
Concise, understandable and close to the Swiss original.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
AllegroTrans
: I see no need to expand on this, bearing in mind the acronyms which follow and the reference to an annexe
12 hrs
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Thanks AllegroTrans. That's pretty much my take on it too. The acronyms are not used in the header in the French so we need something simple here and the definition and explanation follows in the annexes
|
-1
1 day 3 hrs
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
experienced and well qualified linguist
Native in: English (Variant: UK)
Works in: Spanish to English, English, Spanish, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
lists of large and small items
The inventories are the lists of large and small items in a hotel stock of furnishings.
The information provided explains that those involved are obliged to guarantee the payment of corresponding costs, as are described in detail in an attachment. In the attachment a plan of the entire building shows a description of a hotel and a list of large furnishings, fixtures and equipment, and smaller items such as office supplies and equipment.
The information provided explains that those involved are obliged to guarantee the payment of corresponding costs, as are described in detail in an attachment. In the attachment a plan of the entire building shows a description of a hotel and a list of large furnishings, fixtures and equipment, and smaller items such as office supplies and equipment.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
ormiston
: Why not just agree with SafeTex's answer above?
2 hrs
|
| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: This is basically just a repeat of SafeTex's answer with "inventory" changed to "list", which is wrong
3 hrs
|
Discussion
And even then you have to get it out of the Spanish, because there are plenty of options there too.
https://www.proz.com/kudoz.php/german-to-french/law-contract...
I was about to ask if this property is a hotel, as "Kleininventar / Grossinventar" seem to be terms specific to the hotel industry. And interesting coincidence, your ST is about a hotel.
Any past Proz questions DE->EN about "Kleininventar / Grossinventar"?
https://occa-design.com/blog/ffe-and-ose-explained/