This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
mailles (here)
transport sur sellette

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

à la charge du cas privilegié

English translation:

tried under the Royal prerogative

Added to glossary by AllegroTrans
Feb 24, 2021 00:27
3 yrs ago
35 viewers *
French term

à la charge du cas privilegié

French to English Law/Patents Law (general)
This phrase appears in a 1607 French text recounting a legal decision:

"...et pour le curér envoyé par-devant l'Official de Paris, pour lui être son procés fait et parfait sur la faute et abus par lui commis en sa charge en la célébration dudit pretendu marriage, sans consentement et hors la présence des parents, et sans publication des bans, à la charge du cas privilegié, à l'instruction et jugement duquelle assistera le lieutenant criminel..."

Thanks for any insight!
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 tried under Royal privilege/preroragative
3 +1 cas privilegie
5 -1 this being a special case including secular authorities (involving secular authorities' privilege) )
2 +1 with benefit of clergy overridden by the > French > Royal Prerogative
3 -1 under the auspices of the Royal Court
3 -2 at the expense of the preferred situation/circumstance
Change log

Feb 25, 2021 12:09: AllegroTrans changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/2855962">Natalie Kammerer's</a> old entry - "à la charge du cas privilegié"" to ""tried under Royal privilege/preroragative""

Feb 25, 2021 19:16: AllegroTrans changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/626010">AllegroTrans's</a> old entry - "à la charge du cas privilegié"" to ""tried under Royal prerogative""

Discussion

Daryo Feb 28, 2021:
Again, your are completely missing the point I mentioned these "20 ghits" to show the availability of enough "direct sources", which are here mostly collections of hundreds of judgements.

The point being that it allows you to see the term used in context, and in one of these "receuil" you can also find a contemporary explanation about when and why "à la charge du cas privilegié" would show in the enonciation of a judgment. THAT was what my answer was based on.

That mention of ghits has NOTHING to do with "the translation method" that amounts to choosing which one of two or more terms is supposed to be relevant for a specific ST solely (simplistically) on the basis of which one is more frequently showing in search results.
SafeTex Feb 25, 2021:
@Daryo "20 ghits, mostly collections of relevant original text from the relevant historical period "

Well, do you expect thousands of hits for this period and "off-beat" subject? and you yourself said original text from the relevanthistorical period.

And since when do you pay any attention to ghits? You've always been against using them which just shows how inconsistent you are.
Daryo Feb 25, 2021:
What is "poor form"? In my rulebook "poor form" is associated with skipped/bungled "research"...

Anyone taking the trouble to check at least some of the direct sources available, not to forget starting by reading ALL of the text quoted by Asker (usually a good idea) would probably refrain from claiming that in this ST someone who is "le Juge ecclésiastique délégué par l'évêque pour exercer en son nom la juridiction contentieuse" would be leading a "Royal court".

Direct sources:

https://www.google.com/search?q="à la charge du cas privileg...

grand total of "only" about 20 ghits, mostly collections of relevant original texts from the relevat historical period - but still more than enough to find the term as used in context, instead of relying on second / third .... hand sources or deciding what's in the ST without bothering to actually read it and extract all available information from it ...

Also https://www.google.com/search?q="�s privilegié"

As to "why does your answer say "secular authorities" and "secular privilege???" .. just read THE WHOLE ANSWER.
SafeTex Feb 25, 2021:
@ Daryo And while I'm at it, wasn't it you who gave a agree to a suggestion by Francois about a maths question, then changed it to a neutral and finally to a disagree the moment you posted your own suggestion???
SafeTex Feb 25, 2021:
@ Daryo i didn't give myself a 5 so I can accept your question (which you now seem to have already withdrawn) and that there was a better answer out there

But if it's ecclesiastical as you now say, why does your answer say "secular authorities" and "secular privilege???

That hardly portrays the idea of either ecclesiastical or the King's (Royal) privilege, does it?
SafeTex Feb 25, 2021:
@Daryo The asker has made a good choice

What I find really poor from you besides the fact that you continually hand out disagrees and give yourself a confidence level of 5 is that you are now insisting that it is an ecclesiastical court although the whole point is that the ecclesiastical clerks were tried in this court but NOT by the ecclesiastical

"...et les cas privilégiés. Cette dernière expression désigne donc à la fois et les cas que l'autorité royale s'était réservés et le processus juridique de dessaisissement des tribunaux ecclésiastiques auquel il correspondait. (extract from Kathleen's reference)

I note too that in your clumsy and long-winded answer, you say "involving secular authorities' privilege" but it's clear that it was the King who had this special privilege. That is why the answer tried under Royal privilege/prerogative was well-chosen, which is not far off from my attempt that you have just shot down with a disagree.

How about a minimum of consistency and a modicum of modesty from you?
Daryo Feb 24, 2021:
yes, and if your look further you find that the whole of "à la charge du cas privilegié" is used when a case is tried in an ecclesiastical court but the King or his judges are ALSO involved. IOW it involves the "privilege" of the King to poke its nose into the Church's business.
Althea Draper Feb 24, 2021:
According to 'A Dictionarie of the French and English tongues' by James Howell printed in 1660, "Cas privilegié - a notable case, or notorious crime, which none but the King or his Judges, may examine, sentence, or censure."

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Dictionarie_of_the_...
Althea Draper Feb 24, 2021:
According to 'A new dictionary French and English' by Guy Miège printed in 1677, "Cas privilegié - qui rend celui qui l'as commis justiciable à tout Juge, & qui le fait déchoir de tout Privilege , an offence (or a crime) that makes one liable to any Judge, and deprives him of all Priviledges" (I know the spelling is wonky, but that's how they spelled it in the dictionary!)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YbWtTwVbLioC&printsec=fr...

Proposed translations

+1
17 hrs
Selected

tried under Royal privilege/preroragative

The "privilege" here appears to have been that of the French monarch, as intimated by Adrian.

Otherwise, iof I read correctly, a member of the clergy could claim benefit of clergy
Note from asker:
I haven't quite settled on how to parse this idea into my final translation, but this is extremely helpful. Thank you!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : unless the reader knows what "l'Official de Paris" is , this can be extremely misleading as the only "Royal privilege/preroragative" of the King it to participate in the proceedings of the ecclesiastical court", not to act on its own!!!
23 hrs
blah blah blah
agree SafeTex : This was indeed the best answer. Well done!
1 day 27 mins
Thanks but I mispelled prerogative; have corrected it via the glossary entry
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-2
17 mins

at the expense of the preferred situation/circumstance

from the context of this "ancient" text, I'm making an educated guess...sounds as if the kids ran off and eloped without publishing marriage bans, without informing the parents and got married "at the expense (of what might have been) the preferred case/situation/circumstance" – I think anyone of those terms, which are valid translations of "cas" could be used here.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : you missed the they point it's THE PRIEST that is being prosecuted, and it's about WHO can prosecute this priest.
4 hrs
disagree AllegroTrans : You've missed the point that this is about the mode of prosecution
13 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
57 mins

cas privilegie

Not really an anwer, but I wonder if this might provide some insight." The website universalis.fr gives the following definition of "cas privilegies."
"Affaires judiciaires concernant des membres de l'Église et réservées aux juridictions royales. Celles-ci s'étaient, durant le haut Moyen Âge et pour enlever aux juridictions ecclésiastiques tout monopole de justice, donné trois procédés leur donnant préséance en matière judiciaire : la saisie du temporel, l'appel comme d'abus et les cas privilégiés. Cette dernière expression désigne donc à la fois et les cas que l'autorité royale s'était réservés et le processus juridique de dessaisissement des tribunaux ecclésiastiques." auquel il correspondait.
Reference:

http://universalis.fr

Peer comment(s):
agree Daryo : you are on the right track - but far more context is needed, like who exactly is judging this priest - if it's a royal court and not a the church, it could mean that this was an instance of "cas privilégié"
3 hrs
neutral SafeTex : I think you should have put this in the references section but it's very helpful in any case. I won't agree simply 'cos it's not a translation but I've based my attempt on it. Thanks
9 hrs
neutral AllegroTrans : Good reference but not an answer
12 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
10 hrs

under the auspices of the Royal Court

this is really hard to crack but I would suggest something like this which does not say too little or too much.
Because even if it does not make much sense to the layman, we cannot start explaining everything in the text to translate and we have to assume that the reader has some knowledge of such matters if reading such a text.
This suggestion is based on Kathleen's reference, added in the discussion rather than the reference section and given again below
Reference:

http://universalis.fr

Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : Correct about the Court, but this misses the "cas privilegié" point, which is central here
3 hrs
disagree Daryo : no, the representative of the King / the secular power (i.e."le lieutenant criminel") is only "participating" in proceedings led by "l'Official de Paris" a judge of the ecclesiastical court
1 day 6 hrs
It's a Royal court as established by Kathleen. Your own attempt using secular misses this and the English is a clumsy and long winded as always but that did not stop you giving it a 5 as you know everyting
Something went wrong...
+1
10 hrs

with benefit of clergy overridden by the > French > Royal Prerogative

I beg unholy forgiveness for hijacking two Anglo-centric doctrines that sprang to mind on reading the other contributions.

Obiter and without wishing to names-drop, the late Sir Christopehr Staughton QC - when President of the Probate, Family and Admiralty Division of the High Court - once confided to me in London that he thought legal translation and court interpreting were 'the hardest legal skills to master'.
Example sentence:

The Diocese of Southwark v Coker [1998] ICR 14 .....concerned an assistant curate of a Church of England parish who argued that he could be sacked only by God. the judge, Sir Christopher Staughton QC, claimed couldn't call such Deity as a witness.

In Eng law, the benefit of clergy (Law Latin: privilegium clericale) was originally a provision by which clergymen could claim that they were outside the jurisdiction of the secular courts and be tried instead in an ecclesiastical court under canon law

Reference:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/139057?seq=1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_of_clergy

Note from asker:
Yes, thank you for these examples. Very helpful indeed!
Peer comment(s):
agree AllegroTrans : Anglo-centric or not, this perfectly describes the situation; please instruct Sir C. Staughton's successors to procure an immediate 300% pay rise for all legal translators
2 hrs
Thx, Chris. I'll mention such to his two daughters. Sir Chris, presiding over an Admiralty Greek shipwreck case - as an ex-French + Classics teacher - had been full of admiration for the court interpreter who battled with sailors' dialects from 6 islands.
neutral Daryo : it's not exactly "overriden" - this priest is still tried in an ecclesiastical court [see: par-devant l'Official de Paris, pour lui être son procés fait] with only the participation of the King's representative [le lieutenant criminel]
1 day 6 hrs
Well, now you - and perhaps others - have learned what 'benefit of clergy' means.
Something went wrong...
-1
6 hrs

this being a special case including secular authorities (involving secular authorities' privilege) )

this being a special case including secular authorities

this being a special case that must be also refered to secular / royal authorities

this being a special case where secular / royal authorities have the privilege (/special right) to be involved


CL5 regarding the meaning

OTOH a short translation that would make sense in the today's mindset is far from obvious.

explanation is there

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3FFDAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&ne...

look at the occurrences of "à la charge du cas privilegié" in one of them is a comment explaining its meaning.

that explains also why "le lieutenant criminel" - a secular / royal authority was involved in the proceedings lead by "l'Official de Paris" an ecclesiastical judge


• OFFICIAL, n. m.

T. de Droit canon. Juge ecclésiastique délégué par l'évêque pour exercer en son nom la juridiction contentieuse. L'official de Paris, l'official de Lyon, etc. On le cita devant l'official.
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/academie8/official

malfaicteur
--Malfaicteur, Maleficus.
--Un malfaicteur attaint et convaincu de cas digne de mort, à qui on a seulement sauvé la vie, Reus capitalis rei compertus, cui vsura tantum lucis seruata est, B.
--Un malfaicteur estant en franchise, Reus loci sanctitate fretus, Budaeus.
--Empescher que l'on ne face justice de grans malfaicteurs, Homines facinorosos ac perditos legibus eripere, Bud.
--Un malfaicteur renvoyé à son juge d'eglise, Reus verticis initiati patrocinio seruatus, B.
--Malfaicteurs renvoyez à leur juge d'eglise, à la charge du cas privilegié, avec defenses de ne les eslargir jusques à ce qu'il soit decidé dudit cas, Rei, cum exceptione selecti criminis relegati ad pontificiam cognitionem: ita vt authorati praeiudicio Curiae aut cuiusuis praefecti prouinciae in reatu semper esse censeatur regij criminis ergo, quoad eo nomine in eos vindicatum sit, Budaeus.
--Un rusé malfaicteur, Un fin paillard, Un mauvais garson, Reus veterator, Bud.
Malfaicteurs vagabons, Rei delati sine re, sine sede, sine lare, Homines


https://portail.atilf.fr/cgi-bin/getobject_?p.4:56./var/artf...


La Cour a rendu et rend le prisonnier à son Evesque pour luy faire son procez sur le delict commun, à la charge du cas privilegié, etc. Curia reum non suae ditionis, translatitij criminis ergo ad pontificium iudicium relegandum censuit. Quod vero ad praecipuum admissum regiumque attinet. B.

https://fr.thefreedictionary.com/rendre

https://documents.univ-toulouse.fr/150NDG/PPN099889641.pdf

here is an explanation about what exactly are "cas privilegiés" (copy-paste won't work):

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4f9BxHlWOqoC&pg=PA217&lp...

note that it's linked with "livrer au bras séculier"

Livrer au bras séculier"
Signification Faire appel à la justice du seigneur ou du roi, la justice du siècle, au lieu de la justice ecclésiastique, celle de l'Eglise. Traduction anglais : delivered to the secular.

which is AGAIN about conflict of jurisdiction between royal (secular / temporal) courts and ecclesiastical courts






--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2021-02-24 06:53:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


Recueil tiré des procédures criminelles faites par plusieurs officiaux, et ...
By Pierre De Combes
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3FFDAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&ne...


Recueil des actes, titres et mémoires concernant les affaires du clergé de ...
By Pierre Le Merre
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4f9BxHlWOqoC&pg=PA217&lp...

Traitez des droits et libertez de l'Eglise Gallicane. Tome premier ..., Volume 1
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8oU_mFKb0EcC&pg=PA328&lp...
etc



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2021-02-24 06:55:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://documents.univ-toulouse.fr/150NDG/PPN099889641.pdf


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 17 hrs (2021-02-25 17:59:27 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Special addition for the hard of seeing (what's staring at you!), or about methods - like using ALL availalble information:

"...et pour le curér envoyé par-devant l'Official de Paris, pour lui être son procés fait et parfait sur la faute et abus par lui commis en sa charge en la célébration dudit pretendu marriage, sans consentement et hors la présence des parents, et sans publication des bans, à la charge du cas privilegié, à l'instruction et jugement duquelle assistera le lieutenant criminel..."

envoyé par-devant l'Official de Paris, pour lui être son procés fait
=
even though it's the French from the year 1607, it's still clear that this prest will be judged by "l'Official de Paris"

ALSO

à l'instruction et jugement duquelle assistera le lieutenant criminel
=
there is someone whose title is "le lieutenant criminel" that will be present "to assist", NOT to "to lead"

NOW, the one leading the proceddings being "l'Official de Paris", let's see what CNRTL has to say about it:

OFFICIAL, n. m. T. de Droit canon. Juge ecclésiastique délégué par l'évêque pour exercer en son nom la juridiction contentieuse. L'official de Paris, l'official de Lyon, etc. On le cita devant l'official.

So... this would be a Royal court judging this priest?
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : Very wordy answer and confidence level OTTT
10 hrs
the confidence level is about the meaning of the whole phrase as used in this kind of texts at that time // if you take the trouble to check the references that can't be copied, you might find that it's very far from being "OTT"?
disagree SafeTex : You give this 5? It's not secular as the case is heard is a special Royal Court. And once again, the English is clumsy and long-wnded.
1 day 10 hrs
yes, for damn good reasons (like research?)/"the case is heard is a special Royal Court"??? ST: "....envoyé par-devant l'Official de Paris, pour lui être son procés ..." => just check for yourself WHO EXACTLY would be "l'Official de Paris" around AD 1607!
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search