This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
échantillon natif
Lice
Jun 20, 2020 22:00
3 yrs ago
46 viewers *
French term

indépendant de la personnalité

French to English Bus/Financial Real Estate Valuations of property
"REVENU NET
Il se définit comme le loyer annuel et les éventuels autres revenus générés par l'immeuble desquels on soustrait l'ensemble des frais annuels supporté par le propriétaire et découlant de la nature intrinsèque de l'immeuble, mais *indépendants de la personnalité* du propriétaire. A titre d'exemple, mais de manière non exhaustive, on peut citer, parmi les éléments à déduire : les honoraires ou frais de gestion, les assurances d'immeubles, la taxe foncière et les travaux d'entretien courant (sauf si ceux-ci sont remboursés par les locataires) ainsi que les grosses réparations."

I'm struggling to get at the meaning of this phrase in this context. This is a valuation of a commercial property and this excerpt is from a section discussing various methods/approaches to valuations - here, exactly what constitutes net rental income.

I think I get the basic gist - the only expenses that are deducted from the rental income are those DIRECTLY related to the leased property, and not to anything *specific to* the owner (which is likely to be a legal personality i.e. a company, rather than an individual). But how exactly to phrase this? I would be so glad if anybody could point me in the right direction. Thank you in advance.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 regardless of the identity of...
4 +1 [costs ...] not related to the specific circumstances of the owner
4 -1 regardless of the legal personality
3 -1 ... separate from (the landlord), personally
3 -2 personal status-unrelated
References
the whole definition, including what IS "dépendants de la personnalité* du propriétaire"

Discussion

SafeTex Jun 23, 2020:
@ all I think Daryo has cracked it.
The problem is that if we put in just "identity", then we have
"[costs] regardless of whether the owner is Joe Doe, Jane Doe or Fred Blogs" (the identity of the owner)
People would read this and wonder why this has been said.
This is why nearly all of the suggestions go for something more than just "identity".
it's like free bus passes. They do not depend SOLELY on the identity of the person but on the fact that the person is over a certain age - their "specific circumstances" as Daryo puts it -.
Eliza Hall Jun 22, 2020:
Why it's not "intuitu personae" Daryo's right that this term isn't seen outside of contracts. It's literally the name for a type of contract. Here's the gist:

Most contracts can be assigned. For instance, if you rent an apartment, your lease is with your landlord, but if she sells the building and assigns your lease to the new owner, you don't care. It doesn't matter to you who you write the check to, as long as your rent and the other contract terms stay the same. Those contracts are not intuitu personae, because it doesn't matter who's on the other side as long as the terms stay the same.

But in some contracts it absolutely matters who's involved. If you hire the Rolling Stones to play your birthday party, they can't assign that contract to Arianna Grande and have her show up for your party instead. If you own a priceless artwork and sign a contract to loan it to the Louvre, they can't assign that contract to a nightclub and put your artwork in the nightclub. Those contracts are intuitu personae: you only signed it because of who was on the other side. For you, that person/band/company is irreplaceable: without them, there's no contract.

That's not what this translation is about at all.
Daryo Jun 22, 2020:
@ Charlotte Allen You are right about "intuitus personae" in the sens that "frais annuels ... dépendants de la personnalité du propriétaire." are costs linked to who exactly is the owner, to its personna - costs that are / or would be incured by that person / entity, but not necessarily by anybody else.

Only problem is I can't remember ever seeing "intuitus personae" being used for anything else than for a contract being characterised as "intuitus personae", I think that "costs" being characterised as "intuitus personae" would sound really odd, although there is a good logic in it.
Daryo Jun 22, 2020:
does sound very plausible but it's not about fancies taking the owner.
See refs.
Timothy Rake Jun 21, 2020:
@Eliza Very excellent explanation.
Eliza Hall Jun 21, 2020:
Why Timothy Rake is right; "personnalité" This just means the intrinsic costs of running this building, as opposed to any costs that might vary from one owner to the next depending on how each owner wants to run the building. In other words, costs that exist regardless of who the owner is. So what you want here is his translation or "not dependent upon the identity of the owner."

For example: maybe this owner wants it to be a fancy doorman building with 24-hour attendants, but the next owner just wants a live-in building superintendent. The cost of doormen's salaries, uniforms, etc., wouldn't be an intrinsic cost of running the building; it's just the cost of running it the way that particular owner wants to run it.

The reason "personnalité" is included in the FR is to clarify that it doesn't mean costs of things that the owner didn't order/specify/do; if you just said "indépendents du propriétaire," it might sound like you just meant costs that happen by themselves (e.g., property taxes) and not because of anything the owner did (e.g., call a plumber to fix a leak). But many intrinsic costs aren't incurred until the owner does something. It's not about what the owner does but who the owner is.
Charlotte Allen (asker) Jun 21, 2020:
intuitus personae (in consideration of the person) @Daryo - just happened to me as well, bit of a bug on this site, I feel your pain.

Thanks all for the lively discussion and contributions. I think the legal/moral -v- natural person debate is a bit of a red herring here and that we're more in the realm of the concept of intuitus personae - obviously that's in reference to contracts, but I think it's more along those lines. Expenses that arise 'in consideration of the person' - i.e. if the property was owned by someone else/some other type of company, those expenses would not arise. I'm not an accountant/valuer so I can't say what that might consist of, but I think that's what it's getting at.
Daryo Jun 21, 2020:
I started writing an answer and them gremlins in my PC woke up and ate it all in one single blip!

Will try again latter. I'm pretty sure what would make sense in this context (i.e. valuation of a property considered as a source of revenue / value of the building if bough as investment) and "legal personality" doesn't fit.
SafeTex Jun 21, 2020:
@ Daryo Well do you accept "identity" as you haven't commented or disagreed with that?

So maybe you think the costs depends on whether its Fred Blogs or Joe Doe or company A or B cos that would be "identity"?
Daryo Jun 21, 2020:
what would be "costs regardless of the legal identity"???

When I try to figure out what that beast could look like, only Escher's drawings spring to my mind ...
SafeTex Jun 21, 2020:
regardless of the legal identity Hello

I think that "personnalité" was used as there is also in the mind of the writer "personne légale ou morale"
So based largely on Timothy's suggestion and the agrees, I do think that "legal" has to be used to make things much clearer.
SafeTex Jun 21, 2020:
@ all Could they also have in mind "personne morale" v "personne légale" to some extent as well as the character of the owner(s).

Proposed translations

+4
3 mins
Selected

regardless of the identity of...

doesn't matter who the owner is...individual, corporate, whatever....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 mins (2020-06-20 22:23:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

identity => i.e., legal status
Note from asker:
This has been most helpful, together with @SafeTex's comments, and the discussion above.
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : This was my first thought too, but it doesn't seem to fit the context. After all, you can't deduct costs that you didn't incur. But you may be right...//Yes, I think you're probably right.
7 mins
What I understand is net revenue depends on the "intrinsic nature" of the building, and not owner. I would assume that different ownership (corporate, partnerships, individuals) may have different applicable tax structures/fees
agree Josephine Cassar : Very good explanation too
7 hrs
neutral SafeTex : Add "legal" though. See my point in the discussion please. it's not about whether it's Joe Blogs or Joe Doe which is why I just can't go for "identity" alone
9 hrs
agree Eliza Hall : Don't add "legal" (as SafeTex counsels). It's not the meaning here.
15 hrs
neutral Daryo : yes, but you went the wrong way with your explanation - it's simply "who exactly is the owner" - it's not about of what type of "legal personality" is this owner or what's the owner's legal status.
1 day 2 hrs
Agree, I think Eliza had best explanation
agree GILLES MEUNIER
1 day 10 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-2
19 mins

personal status-unrelated

unrelated to the personal, corporate - partnership, individual or joint marital status of the owner / freeholder, so sending the letting income into a separate French schedular category.
Example sentence:

A taxpayer's filing status is unrelated to his or her marital status.

Reference:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-contracts/1093173-la-société-jouira-de-la-personnalité-morale.html

Note from asker:
This is useful, as you are rightly pointing out that in English we can't just use the word 'personality' without further clarification - here, the idea of status.
Peer comment(s):
neutral SafeTex : Hello Adrian: Personal status is often used for marital status while in other countries, it is often the status of women in marriage. I'm not convinced that this is the best choice or wording in this case nor what is meant
9 hrs
A logical fallacy, alas, Safetex, as a corp. may have a personal, *individual* status and give a personal guarantee: Clive M. Schmitthoff's Select Essays on International Trade Law & Int'l Handbook on Shareholders' Agreements > weblinks of both too long.
disagree Eliza Hall : It's not about the owner's status (whatever that means). It's about costs that can vary depending on who the owner is. See discussion.
15 hrs
You are, again, misreading the source text and misleading the narrative. It is not about la personne of the owner or freeholder, a term you may be unfamiliar with, but the persona.
disagree Daryo : when you finally get hold of the "original" document relevant for this ST (instead of second /third / hand quotes) the picture is slightly different.// the ST is quoted from "CHARTE DE L'EXPERTISE EN EVALUATION IMMOBILIERE" that is what counts, no?
1 day 3 hrs
The asker has the orginal doc. & proposes an 'intuitus personae' answer, plus you are also simplistically conflating the three separate ideas of personnalité - status or capacity: Bridge, la personne : *identity* and un personnage: a character.
Something went wrong...
-1
15 hrs

regardless of the legal personality

i.e. whether the owner is an individual or legal entity (company etc.)

Legal personality

To have legal personality means to be capable of having legal rights and duties within a certain legal system, such as to enter into contracts, sue, and be sued. Legal personality is a prerequisite to legal capacity, the ability of any legal person to amend rights and obligations. Legal persons are of two kinds: natural persons – people – and judicial persons – groups of people, such as corporations, which are treated by law as if they were persons. While people acquire legal personhood when they are born, judicial persons do so when they are incorporated in accordance with law.

https://www.definitions.net/definition/legal personality
Peer comment(s):
disagree Eliza Hall : It's not about whether the owner is an individual, corporation, etc. It's about costs that vary depending on the owner, as opposed to costs that exist regardless of who owns it/how any given owner wants to run the place.
8 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
1 day 4 hrs
French term (edited): [frais annuels supporté par le propriétaire - mais] indépendants de la personnalité du propriétaire.

[costs ...] not related to the specific circumstances of the owner


frais annuels supporté par le propriétaire et découlant de la nature intrinsèque de l'immeuble, mais *indépendants de la personnalité* du propriétaire.
=
frais annuels supporté par le propriétaire ... mais indépendants de la personnalité du propriétaire.

What costs are "indépendants de la personnalité du propriétaire." can be defined by opposition to those costs that are "dépendants" (de la personnalité du propriétaire):

catégories de dépenses qui sont variables en fonction de la personnalité du propriétaire:

-- régime d'impôt sur le revenu,
-- financement en fonds propres ou avec des emprunts de quotité et de conditions variables,
-- amortissements.

IOW

frais annuels supporté par le propriétaire ... mais indépendants de la personnalité du propriétaire.

would be costs that are purely related to the building and would not depend on the specific circumstances of the owner i.e. how much and what kind of taxes the owner has to pay, what was the source of financing for acquiring the building, how much is the mortgage repayment etc



Peer comment(s):
agree SafeTex : This makes sense and the references are very helpful. For me, it does tie in with the (legal) identity (or whatever it is called) of the owner.
4 hrs
"legal indentity" is part of it, but only as far it has an influnece on the amounts of taxes to pay // the term is much wider in meaning - includes ALL and ANY "circumstances" specific to the owner. Thanks!
agree Cyril Tollari : personal circumstances?
18 hrs
disagree Eliza Hall : This is a good *explanation,* but that isn't the same thing as a good *translation*. If someone asked you to translate a FR legal document "into plain English," this would work, but that's not generally what we're asked to do.
1 day 12 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
1 day 19 hrs

... separate from (the landlord), personally

The information describes rent and annual costs related with domestic revenue (household income and expenses).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2020-06-25 00:16:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Je comprends que le propriétaire loue l'appartement tandis que la personne qui habite le logement paie le loyer et les autres frais accumulés pendant son séjour. Pendant ce temps le propriétaire a ses propres frais, séparés des choses de la personne qui habite le logement loué, ce dont il est responsable. Néanmoins il y a quelque chose d'autre comme des assurances, les coúts des travaux d'entretient et des réparations. Le propriétaire sustrait ses propres coúts des autres coúts grands de l'immeuble. Parmi ça il ya peut-être quelque chose que serait rembursé par des locataires, et dedans cette partie-là il y a peut-être d'un désaccord sur qui doit payer au debut.
I understand it's about the living expenses which a tenant accrues annually while renting a property "les éventuels autres revenus générés par l'immeuble... découlant de la nature intrinsèque de l'immeuble" (the other expenses generated following on from the intrinsic nature of the property), as well as basic property (ground) tax "la taxe foncière". There are also "les assurances d'immeubles et les travaux d'entretient courant (sauf si ceux-ci sont remboursés par les locataires) et les grosses réparations".
I understand that those are property insurance, maintenance work expenses, excepting those which may be reimbursed by tenants, and major repairs. It seems as if there are three areas which are firstly the tenant's own living costs and expenses, secondly, property maintenance costs and building insurance as well as necessary repair work, and thirdly, the landlord (or owner)'s own personal expenses. It's possible that the second part of building maintenance, insurance and major repair work costs are the issue, and there may be a disagreement on who is liable to pay which part. Meanwhile one part may be the responsibility of either the landlord or the tenant, even if neither is liable to pay in the first place or reimburse costs later. It's possible that there may be a disagreement about who must pay for something in the first instance.
Example sentence:

It is defined as the annual rent and other possibilities of domestic revenue (household income and expenses) from which one subtracts the overall total of annual costs withstood by the owner (or landlord) ... separate from the landlord (owner) personally.

Il se définit comme le loyer annuel et les éventuels autres revenus générés par l'immeuble desquels on substrait l'ensemble des frais annuels supporté par le proprietaire ... indépendants de la personnalité du proprietaire.

Peer comment(s):
disagree Eliza Hall : That makes it sound like the distinction is between the cost of running the building and the landlord's own personal expenses. That's not what this is about.
1 hr
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 day 3 hrs
Reference:

the whole definition, including what IS "dépendants de la personnalité* du propriétaire"

catégories de dépenses qui sont variables en fonction de la personnalité du propriétaire:

-- régime d'impôt sur le revenu,

-- financement en fonds propres ou avec des emprunts de quotité et de conditions variables,

-- amortissements.



VALEUR DISCOUNTED CASH FLOW (DCF)

Selon la charte de l expertise, en évaluation immobilière 3ème édition Juin 2006, la valeur DCF se définit comme :

«Le loyer annuel et les éventuels autres revenus générés par l immeuble desquels on soustrait l ensemble des frais annuels supportés par le propriétaire, intrinsèques de l immeuble, mais indépendants de la personnalité du propriétaire. A titre d exemple, mais de manière non exhaustive, l on peut citer parmi les éléments à déduire : les honoraires ou frais de gestion, les assurances d immeubles, la taxe foncière et les travaux d entretien courant (sauf si ceux-ci sont remboursés par les locataires) ainsi que les grosses réparations. C est ce revenu triple net qui sert de base dans les actualisations de flux futurs immobiliers (cash flow immobilier)»

https://docplayer.fr/1168237-Selon-la-charte-de-l-expertise-...

This definition is repeated in several documents, but this one the "source" / the "original":

CHARTE DE L'EXPERTISE EN EVALUATION IMMOBILIERE
...
Chapitre 4 - TYPOLOGIE DES REVENUS

A - Loyer

Il s'agit du loyer annuel brut ou "loyer en principal" versé par un locataire ou un occupant à un propriétaire, en échange de l'usage d'un bien immobilier en vertu d'un titre d'occupation.

Peuvent dans certains cas être assimilées à un loyer des redevances ou indemnités annuelles en contrepartie de la concession ou de l'occupation d'un bien immobilier. Le loyer est exprimé hors droit de bail ou hors TVA et hors charges locatives refacturées au preneur.

Les loyers sont généralement indexés annuellement ou triennalement en fonction d'indices convenus entre les parties (le plus souvent l'indice INSEE du coût de la construction).

Le loyer, hors taxes et hors charges locatives, constitue le revenu brut de l'immeuble.

B - Valeur locative de marché

Elle se définit comme la contrepartie financière acceptable sur le marché pour l'usage annuel d'un bien immobilier dans le cadre d'un bail (quelle que soit sa nature) ou d'un autre titre d'occupation. Elle varie en fonction de l'offre et de la demande sur le marché locatif concerné.

Comme le loyer, elle est exprimée hors droit de bail, hors taxes (TVA) et hors charges locatives refacturées au preneur.

La valeur locative de marché correspond à la totalité du loyer de marché qui pourrait être négocié pour le bien à la date de référence : elle intègre l'incidence des sommes forfaitaires versées au locataire précédent (droit au bail) ou au propriétaire (droit d'entrée, pas de porte).

C - Revenu semi net

Il s'agit du loyer annuel diminué d'un certain nombre de frais que le propriétaire engage et qui ne sont pas, contrairement aux charges locatives, habituellement remboursés par le locataire.

Ces frais concernent généralement l'entretien courant (hors gros-euvre) du local ou de l'immeuble.

La notion de "revenu semi net" peut varier suivant les postes de charges, les usages locaux ou nationaux. Elle doit donc être utilisée avec réserves.

D - Revenu net

Il se définit comme le loyer annuel et les éventuels autres revenus générés par l'immeuble desquels on soustrait l'ensemble des frais annuels supporté par le propriétaire et découlant de la nature intrinsèque de l'immeuble, mais indépendants de la personnalité du propriétaire.

A titre d'exemple, mais de manière non exhaustive, l'on peut citer parmi les éléments à déduire : les honoraires ou frais de gestion, les assurances d'immeubles, la taxe foncière et les travaux d'entretien courant (sauf si ceux-ci sont remboursés par les locataires) ainsi que les grosses réparations.

Ce revenu net annuel constitue l'assiette à laquelle est appliqué le taux de rendement sur le revenu net (cf. chapitre 5, paragraphe E). C'est également ce revenu net qui sert de base dans les actualisations de flux futurs.

E - Cash-flow (flux de trésorerie)

Il s'entend comme le flux annuel constitué par la différence entre l'ensemble des recettes générées par un immeuble (loyers, location d'emplacements publicitaires, produits financiers des dépôts de garantie) et l'ensemble des dépenses, y compris les impôts sur le revenu, les éventuels remboursements d'emprunts, intérêts d'emprunt ou frais financiers.

Le cash-flow correspond donc au revenu net défini plus haut, duquel on soustrait en outre des catégories de dépenses qui sont variables en fonction de la personnalité du propriétaire (régime d'impôt sur le revenu, financement en fonds propres ou avec des emprunts de quotité et de conditions variables, amortissements).

Le cash-flow stricto sensu, à la différence du revenu net, constitue donc plus une donnée d'analyse qu'une base d'expertise.

http://www.expertfrance.com/chartexp.html
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Cyril Tollari
19 hrs
Merci!
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search