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May 11, 2020 06:38
4 yrs ago
59 viewers *
French term

L’axe 2 positionne également le dîner du soir sur le repas de midi

French to English Marketing Food & Drink Baby food
I am currently translating for a baby food company that want to revamp their packaging etc., and have carried out multiple tests/surveys on different packaging/design concepts.
I can't seem to find a good way of phrasing this...any ideas would be great!


Full sentence: L’axe 2 positionne également (mais dans une moindre mesure) les diner du soir sur le repas de midi vs. axe 1 ou pack actuel  un ciblage moins bien exécuté pour les diners du soir en axe 2 ?

It's the SUR thats bothering me I think..

Thanks in advance! :)

Emily
Proposed translations (English)
4 the supper menus in Version 2 are equally suitable for lunch
3 +3 Version / approach
3 Concept 2 also gives equal weight to the evening and midday meals
3 Equally, in option 2, the evening meal may be substituted for the midday meal
3 -1 The second approach places the evening meal equally following on from the midday meal.
Change log

May 11, 2020 22:28: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "L’axe 2 positionne également les diner du soir sur le repas de midi" to "L’axe 2 positionne également le dîner du soir sur le repas de midi"

Discussion

ph-b (X) May 14, 2020:
Philippa, Agreed. So delete all references to dictionaries from my previous messages. Just read them as a comment from an educated native speaker who turned to reliable sources to confirm his first impression : se positionner sur (assuming that’s French to start with) can only refer to a market, not to another good/product (see above note about par rapport à). Which, added to that gem about dinners and lunches, turns the whole sentence into pure, unadulterated garbage ("poor translators" indeed!). But I’m glad to report that the client’s alternative (les menus du soir conviennent également aux repas du midi) makes my cross much lighter to bear 😊 Have a good weekend !
Philippa Smith May 12, 2020:
@ph-b Haha! Your cross is weighing heavily today it seems...:-)
But I think it's an interesting question: if a certain type of language is spoken by everyone in a certain world, however small, and thus understood by all those people, doesn't that mean it becomes a language in its own right, and therefore not poorly-written? Tho' of course that doesn't take into account the burden of the poor translator! ;-)
I also feel that, although I truly love dictionaries and think they are wonderful things, they can't always give us the answer, and can't necessarily keep up with ever-shifting language.
ph-b (X) May 12, 2020:
Tony, "It's 'marketing-speak'... " It may well be, but it is no excuse for poorly written French and general rubbish. This dîner du soir/repas de midi is fast becoming a classic around here, not to mention that dictionaries that do reluctantly define se positionner sur as a marketing verb, say it's used by reference to a market (sur un marché), not to another product (une tablette de chocolat ne se positionne pas sur une autre tablette de chocolat). At a push, things might be slightly different with se positionner par rapport à. Err... no, still yucky. Anyway, I hope those unsuspecting babies will enjoy their dinner at lunch. Or is that the other way round? Sorry, I seem to have lost my positionnement. Never mind… Just as you and Philippa have sinned, I'll bear my cross 😊
Philippa Smith May 12, 2020:
@Tony " for my sins, I hear this sort of jargon all the time!", I must have committed the same sins! ;-)
Tony M May 12, 2020:
@ Ph-B It's "marketing-speak" — it didn't shock me at all: for my sins, I hear this sort of jargon all the time!
ph-b (X) May 12, 2020:
positionne le dîner du soir sur le repas de midi is supposed to mean les menus du soir conviennent également aux repas du midi ? Fancy that! And why didn't they simply say that to start with? Thank you for letting us know: at least we know now we won't be killing babies... in whatever position.
Tony M May 12, 2020:
@ Asker Please note, that is pretty much exactly what I said from the outset (and had instinctively understood!) — except that we didn't have the context to know that this was about 'menus' rather than specific dishes.
Emily Little (asker) May 12, 2020:
Clarification from client Thanks everyone for your input, I finally received clarification from the client and apparently the phrase means "‘avec l’axe 2, les menus du soir conviennent également aux repas du midi." which is a lot clearer!! Not at all how I had understood it (I didn't really understand it at all if I'm honest haha!!)
ph-b (X) May 11, 2020:
If this is about baby food, or even about food in general, I would be careful not to make any mistake, never mind that it might be about packaging. Translating without being certain of what your source text means is never a good idea, and even more so here.
Tony M May 11, 2020:
@ Asker I think part of the puzzlement here is that we don't have the whole of your wider context, to know in what way Axe 1 and Axe 2 are actually presenting the products, saying about them, etc. And the fact that Axe 2 is described as being 'dans une moindre mesure' and 'également' begs the question what has been referred to before? or are they saying "compared to Axe 1 and/or the existing packaging"? I feel sure simply seeing these visuals would clarify things no end.
ph-b (X) May 11, 2020:
Tony, I didn't quote Larousse actually. So checked it: while accepting that positionner can be used in a handful of contexts, as do the other dicos I've already mentioned, it also adds: Ne pas l'utiliser en dehors de ces emplois comme un simple synonyme (qu'il n'est pas) de placer. Préférer asseoir, camper, disposer, fixer, établir, implanter, installer, mettre en place, poser, poster, ranger. (https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/positionner/6... I only pointed that out because of the lousy French used in the sentence asked, which really got me started this morning, and to show that , even allowing for fanciful usage in ads or marketing talk, for instance, in the circumstances only the authors really know what they mean. I would go back to them and ask.
Tony M May 11, 2020:
@ Asker The underlying meaning seems to me fairly clear: they are trying to reduce (minimize?) the distinction between baby meals meant for 'supper' or 'lunch' — you can just imagine a parent going to the cupboard and saying "Oh bother, poor Baby will have to go hungry as I don't have any 'lunch' meals in stock, only 'supper' ones!"
Clearly, there is no inherent difference between the 2 meals, other than the way they have been trying to market them to date. Perhaps there is a minor difference in e.g. size that they are seeking perhaps to play down here.
That's how I understand 'positionner sur...' in this instance. And cf. other uses in marketing etc., like 'se positionner sur le marché haut de gamme / entrée de gamme' etc.
Tony M May 11, 2020:
@ Ph_B I think Le Grand Robert is a little behind the times here: in such marketing / business management context, 'to position' has a slightly special meaning, which is not, I believe, adequately covered by any of the properly FR synonyms suggested — whence, no doubt, the need to fall back on the EN term, while the Académie Française makes up its ponderous mind...
ph-b (X) May 11, 2020:
Positionner Le Grand Robert describes it as un anglicisme and adds: Dans tous ses emplois..., le mot serait avantageusement remplacé par des synonymes tels que localiser, situer, régler, déterminer, etc. Could one of these help clarify your sentence?
Matt Finizio May 11, 2020:
Thanks ph-b, reading your comment makes me feel better. I was getting the same vibe, but I was chalking it up to some specific native French phrasing that I was not yet familiar with.
ph-b (X) May 11, 2020:
About revamping While they're at it, your clients could also "revamp" their French! dîner du soir is pleonastic and repas de midi are called déjeuners. Or they can use use repas for both and say repas de midi/(celui) du soir. If their thinking is as muddled as their written language is muddied, good luck with working out what it all means and with the translation! Sorry - I realise you can't really go back to your clients and tell them to get their act together, just a Monday morning rant about this week's first crime against language :-).
Practically speaking, the usual reliable monolingual dictionaries say that positionner must be used in some specific contexts only, and your clients' is not one of them, unsurprisingly, which means only they know what they mean. However, it seems to refer, in the right context, to the place that something occupies in relation to sthg else - that's the meaning of sur ("par rapport à").
This said, I agree with Matt's "version/approach" and I understand that positionner sur means that dinners are aligned (!)/depend (to a lesser extent) on lunches - whatever that means: in terms of times/content/layout?

Proposed translations

1 day 2 hrs
Selected

the supper menus in Version 2 are equally suitable for lunch

Now we have proper explanatory context that confirms my original instinctive reading, I think it is worth submitting this suggestion as an elegant, idiomatic way of expressing the point being made.

I should perhaps add that I have been translating for a baby food manufacturer for some years — so perhaps I am "in tune" with their jargon!


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 2 hrs (2020-05-12 09:14:26 GMT)
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I should perhaps add that the adult terms 'lunch' and 'supper' may not be ideal in a baby food context, and Asker will need to use the terms this manufacturer uses elsewhere. I think there is possibly some 'cachet', though, in using them, since it might sow in the reader's mind the notion that this is "proper food" rather than 'baby mush'. I have noticed this with the particular baby food manufacturer I work for, where they have got a Michelin * chef to create dishes for them, and the description of the dishes sometimes reads like what you might see on a restaurant menu!
I think Philippa's idea is interesting — she is clearly reading this the same as I, but comes to a different conclusion, which is perfectly valid, but I don't believe applies in this particular instance.
The idea of differentiating between products in order to sell more is certainly possible; but I think the idea here is just as much to sell alternative products to people who (say) are only interested in lunch dishes, so mustn't rule out buying others that are being marketed as 'for supper'. I suspect a lot of people buy ready-made baby food for lunch because away from home (working parents, baby-minder), but prefer where possible to give their baby home-made food of an evening.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Yes, after receiving clarification from the client, I put something along the lines "Strategy 2 promotes the idea that the evening meals can also be eaten at lunchtime", so very mush along the same lines. Thanks for your detailed response- very helpful! :)"
+3
1 hr
French term (edited): L’axe 2 positionne également les diner du soir sur le repas de midi

Version / approach

While I haven't seen this used specifically with food, I have seen it used to mean a position/approach with respect to something. Since the text talks about newer packaging, without further context it seems to me that it would be referring to "the second version (or approach)"-- i.e. the newer packaging--doing a better job at equally representing evening meals and lunch ones, as opposed to the first version (the current version).
Peer comment(s):
agree ph-b (X) : That's probably what axe means here. As for the rest of the sentence, who knows?
1 hr
agree EirTranslations
1 hr
neutral philgoddard : Couldn't it mean the opposite, that it's better at differentiating the two meals? I'm not certain what "sur" means.
5 hrs
agree GILLES MEUNIER
4 days
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-1
3 hrs
French term (edited): L’axe 2 positionne également les diner du soir sur le repas de midi

The second approach places the evening meal equally following on from the midday meal.

I found the meaning of 'axe' to be a route, though it could be an approach. The preposition 'sur' (meaning 'on' or 'over') in the phrase 'Le dîner du soir sur le repas de midi' is unusual. I suggest 'following on from' as an equivalent in this phrase.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2020-05-11 12:12:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I found 'axe' to mean 'roadway'or 'route' as a translation from French. The suggestion 'version' might make more sense in English. I understand it's about labels on food packaging but it's not definite.
Example sentence:

L'axe 2 positionne également (mais dans une moindre mesure) le dîner du soir sur le repas du midi vs l'axe 1 un pack actuel ou ciblage moins bien éxécuté pour les dìners du soir en axe 2

The second route places the evening meal equally (but in a lesser measure) following the midday meal; opposing the first approach in which the current package shows a less well fulfilled target for the evening meals in the second route.

Peer comment(s):
neutral Jennifer White : I can't think what the phrase means, but this version doesn't make sense to me.// well, I can't really object, as I don't see what it means at all - can't offer anything! Cheers.
30 mins
I try the sentence again: 'The second version also places the evening meal (but in moderation) following the midday meal.' (I hope this reads better.)
disagree Tony M : There is no suggestion of "following on from" in the source text, nor indeed any temporal inference whatsoever.
2 hrs
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7 hrs
French term (edited): L’axe 2 positionne également les diner du soir sur le repas de midi

Concept 2 also gives equal weight to the evening and midday meals

It certainly is a pretty cryptic sentence, but I've seen many like it in food industry marketing presentations.
My interpretation is the same as Tony's: that they are saying no2 concept (or version/approach/design, etc.) blurs the lines between evening and midday meals, which is not a good thing for a company presumably wanting to sell two different products. The sentence that follows backs this up: asking the question whether the concept fails to clearly target the evening meal (i.e. convey the difference between food for evening and midday).
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I appreciate your general agreement with my idea; however, I'm not sure you're looking at this the right way round: I suspect they're trying to say "Even if you only want to buy lunches, our evening menus are not restricted JUST to that!"
19 hrs
I understand your comment, but as I see it, this is about packaging concepts and what they convey rather what the products actually do.
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8 hrs
French term (edited): L’axe 2 positionne également les diner du soir sur le repas de midi

Equally, in option 2, the evening meal may be substituted for the midday meal

This is based solely on my gut instinct, triggered by the reference to the bracketed mais dans une moindre mesure, which I take to mean but in a smaller serving.
Peer comment(s):
agree Susanne Toito
8 mins
disagree Tony M : This is not about 'substituting', but about 'emphasizing the suitability for...' And 'moindre mesure' just means 'to a lesser extent'.
36 mins
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