Mar 18, 2004 17:45
20 yrs ago
French term
Joan Roelofs
conservateurs-bornes
French to English
Social Sciences
History
political history
For my translation of work by Victor Considerant, French socialist of 1840s. He uses this term for a faction of the ruling group under the July Monarchy. What would be an appropriate, graceful, English translation? Narrow-minded conservatives, stinted-conservatives, may be similar in meaning, but need something more snappy.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+3
2 mins
ultra conservatives or reactionaries
Declined
in U.S. context
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Note added at 5 mins (2004-03-18 17:51:29 GMT)
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hard-nosed, obstinate, (not what I would call graceful)
my first two are more \"factual\" type names - some people may actually be proud to call themselves an ultra-conservative
hard-nosed. The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993
...meaning stubborn, hardheaded, practical, unsentimental is Conversational: Her father is a hard-nosed pragmatist. 1...
9) dogmatism. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
...Arrogant, stubborn assertion of opinion or belief....
10) obstinate. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
...1. Stubbornly adhering to an attitude, opinion, or course of action; obdurate. 2. Difficult to manage, control, or subdue; refractory. 3. Difficult to alleviate or...
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Note added at 6 mins (2004-03-18 17:52:33 GMT)
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Ronald Reagan was considered by some to be a reactionary.
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Note added at 5 mins (2004-03-18 17:51:29 GMT)
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hard-nosed, obstinate, (not what I would call graceful)
my first two are more \"factual\" type names - some people may actually be proud to call themselves an ultra-conservative
hard-nosed. The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993
...meaning stubborn, hardheaded, practical, unsentimental is Conversational: Her father is a hard-nosed pragmatist. 1...
9) dogmatism. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
...Arrogant, stubborn assertion of opinion or belief....
10) obstinate. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
...1. Stubbornly adhering to an attitude, opinion, or course of action; obdurate. 2. Difficult to manage, control, or subdue; refractory. 3. Difficult to alleviate or...
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Note added at 6 mins (2004-03-18 17:52:33 GMT)
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Ronald Reagan was considered by some to be a reactionary.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Vicky Papaprodromou
0 min
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thanks Vicky
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| agree |
NancyLynn
: you bet they're proud :-D - no, no sensitive nerve - we're in a Progressive Conservative party leadership race here in Ontario & it's very entertaining
8 mins
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thanks Nancy - I hope I haven't hit a sensitive nerve here
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| agree |
Christopher Crockett
: Yes, "ultra" might work --though it, like my answer might be somewhat anachronistic for the 1840s. Re your comment: "Great Minds Run in the Same Ruts".
9 mins
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I guess the asker will have to do some historical research on political terminology of the 1840s :-) sounds like a blast!
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12 mins
true-bklue or dyed-in-the-wool conservatives
Declined
less stringent than the other oferings which may well go with your context; I'm simply suggesting softer alternatives, if you need them
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: Well, since they were Monarchists, they'd hardly be "true-Blue [or Bleu]" --more likely, "true White" [the Bourbon color].
2 days 23 hrs
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2 hrs
Jonathan MacKerron
Native in English
Retired as of Jan 2019!
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
6
limited / partial
Declined
I have a French-German dictionary printed in ca. 1880. "borné" is translated here as "limited/restricted/partial/confined" (begrentz/beschränkt). Seems to have been a rather lowkey non-charged word in those days. Especially "limited" or "partial" might fit your context?
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: A literal interpretation, surely, but it seems that what the term means, in its figurative use here, is rather the opposite, in view of Hacene's exposition of the historical context and the other terms used at the time for these folks.
2 days 20 hrs
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+1
4 mins
French term (edited):
conservateurs-born�s
stubborn conservatives...
Declined
to have more context would help us turning the structure around and fit it into the sentence as well as ensuring that what we are telling you is accurate
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Note added at 1 hr 54 mins (2004-03-18 19:40:37 GMT)
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Thank you for the added context. The full French sentence would still be appreciated as it would ensure of the quality and accuracy of the translation. Nonetheless:
the translation above seem to apply. The July Monarchy in France refers to the appointement of the Citizen-king Louis-Philippe as a successor to Charles X. Charles X was an ultra-royalist whose rule led to the revolution of 1830 and in July (29th after the Trois-Glorieuses)to the appointment of L-P. However, this was to take away from the Republicans and the Socialists control of the government (see revocation of the Prefects, sparring the lives of Charles X\'s advisors, putting Laffitte in charge). Hence, and for the next 18 years, Republicans, Socialists (a minority), Légitimistes (Partisans of Charles X) and Bonapartists are going to struggle to regain control of the state. Of course for the Socialists or the \"Communards\", the government was representing the stubborness of the Royalist faction, especially under Broglie, Thiers and Guizot (after the death of Casimir Perrier in 1832). They were given many nicknames such as \"réactionaires\", \"conservateurs bornés\", \"royalistes en peau de républicain\". They were basically perceived as conservatives who stubbornly tried to preserve the status and privileges of the upper class after having managed to extend these to the upper bourgeoisy. in the early years of the 1830, the industrial centres of the North (coal areas) and Lyon (Canutes, silk) know a high level of unrest. This is in this context that Considérant is writing. Victor Considérant was not only a socialist, but also a philosoph and an economist. He defined in Lyon, as a disciple of Fourier, the principle of \"the right to work\" and took an active part in the revolution of 1848.
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Note added at 3 days 38 mins (2004-03-21 18:24:33 GMT)
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In response to Christopher:
The people Considérant is referring to are not an established political party. They represent a group of people who are in control of government and all share a conservative outlook. A conservative was someone who was trying to preserve the privilege which were regranted firstly, in the Charter of 1818, extended at different times under Charles X, and even in the July charter signed by the \"Citizen-King\". They did not have to be royalist at all, simply against the return to what Considérant calls \"the true value of the French Revolution\".
Considérant in this case is still using a somehow old form of writing full of adjectives which clearly render his writings subjectives. (Remember when Luther wrote about the Pope and vise-versa, their arguements were revolving around name calling, in between theological arguements).
In the instance here, \"Borné\" is about stubbornness, narrow-mindness, stupidity, and being blind to the wish and need of the nation. As a left-wing activist, Considérant considers the action of the ruling political groups as being \"bornés\" and reactionary. We have a similar example with \"repus\" in another question. If you want to translate the text and keep the integrity of the message, you have to use the adjectivisation and its purpose.
Considérant was not writing for the upper classes of for the sake of academic quest for truth, but for an audience of pro-socialists, with pamphlets to be read in cafés to the workers. He is convinced of the truth of his analysis and does not proposed a balanced arguement. In his political context, it was only through attacking the people personnally that you could gain justification and open the debate (hoping for someone to try to justify him/herself). in so far as the lower social classes were concerned, they accepted and welcomed this type of discourse because it was comforting them into their political convinctions. This had a positive advantage for the development of socialism in France as it help creating a divide due to the lack of discussion and exchange between the groups (Conservatives & Socialists) which engendred the revolutionary conflicts (1830, 1848, 1870) and helped shaped French socialism.
However, here it doesn\'t help with the translation as it is something so culturally specific that there is nothing in XIXth century British or American history that we could draw a parralel with. America was already not a Monarchy and the disputes were mostly based around specific temporal issues. The UK was more based around avoid revolution at all cost (hence the 1st reform Act of 1832) and hence throughout the nineteenth century, there is a consensus in Politics to grant minimum concessions to avoid the social unrest. Even at the height of English radicalism under Henry Hunt, there was no name calling (out of use since early XVIIIth century). If you consider the growth of socialism in England, you have a definitive lack of support for it for 2 main reasons. Firstly the willingness of the Liberals under the leadership of Gladstone to provide a platform for the radical ideology, and secondly, the fear and distrust of an ideology which appeared to cause revolutions (hence the creation of a labour platform).
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Note added at 1 hr 54 mins (2004-03-18 19:40:37 GMT)
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Thank you for the added context. The full French sentence would still be appreciated as it would ensure of the quality and accuracy of the translation. Nonetheless:
the translation above seem to apply. The July Monarchy in France refers to the appointement of the Citizen-king Louis-Philippe as a successor to Charles X. Charles X was an ultra-royalist whose rule led to the revolution of 1830 and in July (29th after the Trois-Glorieuses)to the appointment of L-P. However, this was to take away from the Republicans and the Socialists control of the government (see revocation of the Prefects, sparring the lives of Charles X\'s advisors, putting Laffitte in charge). Hence, and for the next 18 years, Republicans, Socialists (a minority), Légitimistes (Partisans of Charles X) and Bonapartists are going to struggle to regain control of the state. Of course for the Socialists or the \"Communards\", the government was representing the stubborness of the Royalist faction, especially under Broglie, Thiers and Guizot (after the death of Casimir Perrier in 1832). They were given many nicknames such as \"réactionaires\", \"conservateurs bornés\", \"royalistes en peau de républicain\". They were basically perceived as conservatives who stubbornly tried to preserve the status and privileges of the upper class after having managed to extend these to the upper bourgeoisy. in the early years of the 1830, the industrial centres of the North (coal areas) and Lyon (Canutes, silk) know a high level of unrest. This is in this context that Considérant is writing. Victor Considérant was not only a socialist, but also a philosoph and an economist. He defined in Lyon, as a disciple of Fourier, the principle of \"the right to work\" and took an active part in the revolution of 1848.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days 38 mins (2004-03-21 18:24:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In response to Christopher:
The people Considérant is referring to are not an established political party. They represent a group of people who are in control of government and all share a conservative outlook. A conservative was someone who was trying to preserve the privilege which were regranted firstly, in the Charter of 1818, extended at different times under Charles X, and even in the July charter signed by the \"Citizen-King\". They did not have to be royalist at all, simply against the return to what Considérant calls \"the true value of the French Revolution\".
Considérant in this case is still using a somehow old form of writing full of adjectives which clearly render his writings subjectives. (Remember when Luther wrote about the Pope and vise-versa, their arguements were revolving around name calling, in between theological arguements).
In the instance here, \"Borné\" is about stubbornness, narrow-mindness, stupidity, and being blind to the wish and need of the nation. As a left-wing activist, Considérant considers the action of the ruling political groups as being \"bornés\" and reactionary. We have a similar example with \"repus\" in another question. If you want to translate the text and keep the integrity of the message, you have to use the adjectivisation and its purpose.
Considérant was not writing for the upper classes of for the sake of academic quest for truth, but for an audience of pro-socialists, with pamphlets to be read in cafés to the workers. He is convinced of the truth of his analysis and does not proposed a balanced arguement. In his political context, it was only through attacking the people personnally that you could gain justification and open the debate (hoping for someone to try to justify him/herself). in so far as the lower social classes were concerned, they accepted and welcomed this type of discourse because it was comforting them into their political convinctions. This had a positive advantage for the development of socialism in France as it help creating a divide due to the lack of discussion and exchange between the groups (Conservatives & Socialists) which engendred the revolutionary conflicts (1830, 1848, 1870) and helped shaped French socialism.
However, here it doesn\'t help with the translation as it is something so culturally specific that there is nothing in XIXth century British or American history that we could draw a parralel with. America was already not a Monarchy and the disputes were mostly based around specific temporal issues. The UK was more based around avoid revolution at all cost (hence the 1st reform Act of 1832) and hence throughout the nineteenth century, there is a consensus in Politics to grant minimum concessions to avoid the social unrest. Even at the height of English radicalism under Henry Hunt, there was no name calling (out of use since early XVIIIth century). If you consider the growth of socialism in England, you have a definitive lack of support for it for 2 main reasons. Firstly the willingness of the Liberals under the leadership of Gladstone to provide a platform for the radical ideology, and secondly, the fear and distrust of an ideology which appeared to cause revolutions (hence the creation of a labour platform).
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Christopher Crockett
: A very helpful exposition of the historical context. I'm still not sure that "stubborn conservatives" is the right translation, however, even though they certainly were "stubborn". I'd be interested in your reaction to the further suggestions I have made.
2 days 23 hrs
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borné commes from the use of horse blinds to "born" or limit the vision of horses. He doesn't doubt the honesty of the Conservatives, rather the stupidity and limited vision. Significant of the period, Borné is not a political faction.
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+4
8 mins
Christopher Crockett
Native in English
Specializes in field
M.A., Ph.D. Historian/Art Historian
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
100
troglodyte conservatives
Declined
This is a favorite term recently in use in the U.S. (though it has been somewhat replaced by the dichotomy of "Palaeo-Conservatives", vs. "Neo-Conservatives").
It might not be suitable for an 1840s context, however.
"Reactionary conservatives" might work, though it is in danger of being a redundancy.
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Note added at 13 mins (2004-03-18 17:58:56 GMT)
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I think your \"narrow-minded conservatives\" is close to the mark, if I correctly understand what the reference to \"bornes\" in the original is intended to convey.
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Note added at 25 mins (2004-03-18 18:11:31 GMT)
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It is not my period of historical expertise (note understatement), but you *might* want to look at some histories of the period (in English), to see what professional historians have called this group/faction/whatever.
There may well be some \"accepted\" term for them, which you should probably use, rather than making up a new one.
This would certainly be the case if, say, you were dealing with, say, the Neo-Cons in power in the U.S. at the present moment.
Just a thought, from a medieval historian.
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Note added at 26 mins (2004-03-18 18:12:49 GMT)
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And I see now that Rita has had the same idea.
Proving, once again, that Great Minds Run in the Same Ruts.
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Note added at 2 hrs 26 mins (2004-03-18 20:12:26 GMT)
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I can\'t find reference to this phrase in either the Tresor de la Lang. Fr. or the Grand Robert.
And, a search for it on the web yields no hits.
So, Joan, if you can\'t find it in your English sources, maybe it was Considerant\'s own, special term, a sort of neologim for this Reactionary, Anti-Revolutionary, Old Guard faction.
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Note added at 2 days 23 hrs 35 mins (2004-03-21 17:21:45 GMT)
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I think it possible that \"borne(s)\" in this context might refer to the figurative use of the word as (perversely) \"unlimited\" > \"extreme\".
In which case \"extreme conservatives\" or \"reactionary conservatives\"
might be of use.
Hacene\'s enlightening exposition, with its mention of the other terms used for these folks is helpful.
His \"royalistes en peau de républicain\" suggests that, rather than being [just] stubborn, they were deceitful and hypocritcal as well, \"closet royalists, posing as republicans\".
More words than you want, obviously.
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Note added at 2 days 23 hrs 38 mins (2004-03-21 17:23:51 GMT)
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Of course, it\'s hard to believe that \"conservatives\" could be \"deceitful and hypocritical\", but suppose so, just for the sake of an argument...
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Note added at 2 days 23 hrs 48 mins (2004-03-21 17:33:50 GMT)
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I just don\'t think that you are going to be able to get away with a single word here.
You can\'t call them \"Monarchists\" because, even they they were, ultimately, that, according to Hacene\'s account the true, non-hypocritical Monarchists were the \"Légitimistes (Partisans of Charles X)\".
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Note added at 3 days 37 mins (2004-03-21 18:23:40 GMT)
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Ahhh.... Native Francophone Hacene has brought a very different idea to the fore :
\"borné commes from the use of horse blinds to \"born\" or limit the vision of horses. He doesn\'t doubt the honesty of the Conservatives, rather the stupidity and limited vision.\"
I am unable to find \"borné\" in this sense in either the Tresor de la Langue Francaise or the Grande Robert which wish to use \"oeille`re\" for these objects, called \"blinders\" in U.S. English (\"blinkers\" in the U.K. dialect) --used fuguratively, someone \"with blinders on\" is \"narrowminded, shortsighted\".
\"Blindered conservatives\" might be the most literal translation (if Hacene is correct in this usage of \"borné\") but is so awkward an expression as to be useless.
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Note added at 3 days 43 mins (2004-03-21 18:29:16 GMT)
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\"Reactionary conservative\" is not *quite* a redundancy, since one could be \"conservative\" (non-Socialist) yet not be \"reactionary\" (literally, Monarchist).
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Note added at 3 days 50 mins (2004-03-21 18:36:48 GMT)
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Hacene\'s additional comments suggest that the French political situation was more complex and nuanced (WHAT!!??, the French political situation was complex??) than I had supposed.
Specifically, \"They did not have to be royalist at all, simply against the return to what Considérant calls \'the true value of the French Revolution\'.\"
\"Reactionary\", but not [necessarily] Monarchist.
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Note added at 3 days 57 mins (2004-03-21 18:43:17 GMT)
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Further note to Hacene\'s most recent comment below:
I said they were \"deceitful\" because of your statement that one of the nicknames for these guys, in addition to \"conservateurs bornés\", was \"royalistes en peau de républicain\".
Which I took to mean \"closet Monarchists, posing as Republicans\" or \"Monarchits in Republican clothes\" (following the English phrase \"Wolves in Sheep\'s clothing\".
Hence, Deceitful and Hypocritical --at least that\'s what the nickname would seem to suggest. Whether that was actually the case, historically, is another question.
It might not be suitable for an 1840s context, however.
"Reactionary conservatives" might work, though it is in danger of being a redundancy.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 mins (2004-03-18 17:58:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I think your \"narrow-minded conservatives\" is close to the mark, if I correctly understand what the reference to \"bornes\" in the original is intended to convey.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 25 mins (2004-03-18 18:11:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
It is not my period of historical expertise (note understatement), but you *might* want to look at some histories of the period (in English), to see what professional historians have called this group/faction/whatever.
There may well be some \"accepted\" term for them, which you should probably use, rather than making up a new one.
This would certainly be the case if, say, you were dealing with, say, the Neo-Cons in power in the U.S. at the present moment.
Just a thought, from a medieval historian.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 26 mins (2004-03-18 18:12:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
And I see now that Rita has had the same idea.
Proving, once again, that Great Minds Run in the Same Ruts.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 26 mins (2004-03-18 20:12:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I can\'t find reference to this phrase in either the Tresor de la Lang. Fr. or the Grand Robert.
And, a search for it on the web yields no hits.
So, Joan, if you can\'t find it in your English sources, maybe it was Considerant\'s own, special term, a sort of neologim for this Reactionary, Anti-Revolutionary, Old Guard faction.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 23 hrs 35 mins (2004-03-21 17:21:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I think it possible that \"borne(s)\" in this context might refer to the figurative use of the word as (perversely) \"unlimited\" > \"extreme\".
In which case \"extreme conservatives\" or \"reactionary conservatives\"
might be of use.
Hacene\'s enlightening exposition, with its mention of the other terms used for these folks is helpful.
His \"royalistes en peau de républicain\" suggests that, rather than being [just] stubborn, they were deceitful and hypocritcal as well, \"closet royalists, posing as republicans\".
More words than you want, obviously.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 23 hrs 38 mins (2004-03-21 17:23:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Of course, it\'s hard to believe that \"conservatives\" could be \"deceitful and hypocritical\", but suppose so, just for the sake of an argument...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 23 hrs 48 mins (2004-03-21 17:33:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I just don\'t think that you are going to be able to get away with a single word here.
You can\'t call them \"Monarchists\" because, even they they were, ultimately, that, according to Hacene\'s account the true, non-hypocritical Monarchists were the \"Légitimistes (Partisans of Charles X)\".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days 37 mins (2004-03-21 18:23:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Ahhh.... Native Francophone Hacene has brought a very different idea to the fore :
\"borné commes from the use of horse blinds to \"born\" or limit the vision of horses. He doesn\'t doubt the honesty of the Conservatives, rather the stupidity and limited vision.\"
I am unable to find \"borné\" in this sense in either the Tresor de la Langue Francaise or the Grande Robert which wish to use \"oeille`re\" for these objects, called \"blinders\" in U.S. English (\"blinkers\" in the U.K. dialect) --used fuguratively, someone \"with blinders on\" is \"narrowminded, shortsighted\".
\"Blindered conservatives\" might be the most literal translation (if Hacene is correct in this usage of \"borné\") but is so awkward an expression as to be useless.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days 43 mins (2004-03-21 18:29:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
\"Reactionary conservative\" is not *quite* a redundancy, since one could be \"conservative\" (non-Socialist) yet not be \"reactionary\" (literally, Monarchist).
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days 50 mins (2004-03-21 18:36:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Hacene\'s additional comments suggest that the French political situation was more complex and nuanced (WHAT!!??, the French political situation was complex??) than I had supposed.
Specifically, \"They did not have to be royalist at all, simply against the return to what Considérant calls \'the true value of the French Revolution\'.\"
\"Reactionary\", but not [necessarily] Monarchist.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days 57 mins (2004-03-21 18:43:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Further note to Hacene\'s most recent comment below:
I said they were \"deceitful\" because of your statement that one of the nicknames for these guys, in addition to \"conservateurs bornés\", was \"royalistes en peau de républicain\".
Which I took to mean \"closet Monarchists, posing as Republicans\" or \"Monarchits in Republican clothes\" (following the English phrase \"Wolves in Sheep\'s clothing\".
Hence, Deceitful and Hypocritical --at least that\'s what the nickname would seem to suggest. Whether that was actually the case, historically, is another question.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
RHELLER
: neo-cons! mais non - you surely didn't mean that one :-)
22 mins
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No, "the asker will have to do some historical research on political terminology of the 1840s" --I'm sure that there *is* a term for this faction in the historical literature. Thanks, Rita.
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| agree |
verbis
2 hrs
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Thanks, verbis.
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| agree |
Hacene
: I wouldn't say they were deceitful because their political agendas were quite clear-cut, but they were trying to control the masses discontent while preserving the established order (they lived throught the 1789 revolution and did not want to see a repeat
2 days 23 hrs
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Yes, "demagogues" and deceitful hypocrites (in that they're hiding their true, Monarchist, agenda), if I'm understanding you correctly. Thanks, Hacene.
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| agree |
JoanR (X)
: There is no accent on bornes; what I was seeking was an English-speaking historian's reference to the French political faction. VC isn't bothered by monarchists; he thought a constitutional monarch might initiate socialism. His ire is for the
3 days 2 hrs
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Thanks, Joan. Unfortunately the KudoZ system doesn't allow splitting points for the "right" answer. Clearly Hacene's detailed knowledge has been essential to my ramblings. Is there an "answer" yet? Interesting exercise.
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Discussion