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Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

maternal grandchild

English answer:

child of a woman's daughter

Added to glossary by Christopher Crockett
Nov 27, 2018 14:01
5 yrs ago
3 viewers *
English term

maternal grandchild

English Social Sciences Genealogy
Most definitions I have seen of this term on-line use the following wording:

"the child of a woman's daughter: a grandchild to whom one is the maternal grandmother"

Example:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/maternal_grandchild

My question is whether it could also be "the child of a man's daughter" and "a grandchild to whom one is the maternal grandfather."

If not, why not? And what term should I more properly use to describe the child in such a relationship?
Responses
4 +2 child of a woman's daughter
Change log

Dec 11, 2018 15:20: Christopher Crockett Created KOG entry

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Edith Kelly

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Discussion

Charles Davis Nov 27, 2018:
Thanks! Glad that's cleared up.

I think the problem here, if any, is not ambiguity. I can't see what else your maternal grandchild could be apart from your daughter's child, and I'm sure anyone would understand it correctly without difficulty. It's just a question of whether it's a legitimate expression, and specifically whether this use of "maternal" is legitimate. There's room for disagreement on that, and personally I'm really not sure whether I would use it or not.
B D Finch Nov 27, 2018:
@Charles OK, I missed the context in which you asked the question. I think we can agree that the wiktionary entry is nonsense. Free, online dictionaries tend to be unreliable. Real dictionaries are expensive because of the work and skill that goes into compiling and checking them.
Charles Davis Nov 27, 2018:
@Barbara I'm sorry, I don't seem to have made myself clear. I said:

'A grandfather can't be a mother and therefore can't be "maternal" in the sense that is presupposed in the wiktionary definition of "maternal grandchild".'

Let me repeat what I think that sense is. If, as wiktionary claims, a woman can have a maternal grandchild but a man can't, it can only be because ¡t is sees the grandparent in this relationship as "maternal" in the sense of being a mother. Otherwise, why can't it be a man? My point was that if we applied that idea to "maternal grandfather", it would mean that the grandfather was "maternal" in the sense of being a mother. That's nonsense, of course; it means on the maternal side or through the maternal line.
B D Finch Nov 27, 2018:
@Charles You asked: "But in that case how can you have a maternal grandfather? A grandfather can't be a mother and therefore can't be "maternal" in the sense that is presupposed in the wiktionary definition of "maternal grandchild"."

I think you have got confused between the meaning of "maternal grandfather" and the situation in the Asker's question. My maternal grandfather was my mother's father. "Maternal" in that context relates to my mother (who could only have had one father), and it doesn't imply that my grandfather was a hermaphrodite and able to bear children. While genetic engineering might confuse this situation, that's not yet a problem we need to deal with linguistically, at least not for people. Zoologists studying snails might have encountered that problem and found a linguistic solution.

I've just read your last comment and see you arrived at the same conclusion!
Charles Davis Nov 27, 2018:
@Amel I think the wiktionary entry is nonsense.

If the expression "maternal grandchild" is legitimate at all, it can only be so by taking "maternal" to mean "through the maternal line". In which case "maternal" has to refer to the grandchild's mother. So if you can apply it to a grandmother you can also apply it to a grandfather. Either both or neither.

As Barbara says, it would be much easier if we had an adjective related to "daughter". But since we don't, we are left without a neat way or referring to this relationship, unless we are prepared to stretch a point and accept this use of "maternal". I think it's worth it. It's no more illogical than plenty of other expressions. "Maternal grandchild" is unambiguous and useful. I think it's acceptable.
B D Finch Nov 27, 2018:
@Amel Yes, I think it (i.e. "matrilineal grandchild") would, BUT I'd avoid using it for a legal document about inheritance, just in case it caused confusion and trouble. It would be much safer to spell out the relationship e.g. I, John Smith, wish to leave all my property to the sons of my daughter, Name of Daughter OR John Smith wishes to leave all his property to the sons of his daughter, Name of Daughter. That would also safeguard against any other offspring appearing and claiming that John Smith was their mother's father.

The term "matrilineal grandchild" is much better suited to talking about inheritance in a historical or sociological context.
Arabic & More (asker) Nov 27, 2018:
Thank you, B D Finch. Interesting stuff. Do you think "matrilineal" works for the context I described?
Arabic & More (asker) Nov 27, 2018:
Charles, I have the same misgivings about the Wiktionary entry. It just doesn't make sense to me. The context involves inheritance, as it describes a man who wanted to leave an inheritance to the sons of his daughter.
B D Finch Nov 27, 2018:
Breaking the line I think that the reason this is so awkward is because societies tend to have rules of inheritance that follow the maternal or paternal line. So patrilineal inheritance would be from a man to his son and to the son's son and matrilineal inheritance would be from a woman to her daughter and to the daughter's daughter. So, in terms of inheritance, the line wouldn't generally pass from a man to his daughter to her child. For example, in Jewish society, where Jewishness is defined matrineally (in spite of it being a traditionally patriarchal society), a Jewish man's daughter would only be Jewish if her mother was also Jewish, while a Jewish woman's son would be Jewish irrespective of whether the father was Jewish.

"Matrilineal grandson" would work if used in the context of inheritance, but not for simply describing a family relationship.

The real problem is that we have ascendant relationships described by the adjectives "maternal" or "paternal" but don't have similar adjectives (derived from the nouns "son" and "daughter") for descendant relationships.
Charles Davis Nov 27, 2018:
The only dictionary definitions I can find online are wiktionary and others derived from it. Maternal and paternal grandchild are not defined in any of the standard dictionaries. We have no way of knowing who wrote the wiktionary entry, whether it is one person's view or has been endorsed by an editiorial committee, how well qualified any of those people are, whether the definition is based on research, knowledge or personal foible. On its own, it is strictly valueless.

It's not logical. Why is it that only a woman can have a maternal grandchild? Presumably because only a woman can be a mother and the word maternal can only be applied to a woman. But in that case how can you have a maternal grandfather? A grandfather can't be a mother and therefore can't be "maternal" in the sense that is presupposed in the wiktionary definition of "maternal grandchild".
Charles Davis Nov 27, 2018:
Matrilineal is a good idea.
Charles Davis Nov 27, 2018:
Legal example From a judgment of the Court of Appeals of Kansas (2015):

"On October 22, 2014, the Grandparents filed a motion in the paternity action seeking visitation of their maternal grandchild."
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/ks-court-of-appeals/1714087.html

Clearly these judges think that a man can have a maternal grandchild.
Arabic & More (asker) Nov 27, 2018:
Many thanks for your thoughts and detailed responses. They are very helpful. It just occurred to me that "matrilineal" might be a more appropriate word. A Google search yields good (relevant) results for "matrilineal grandson." Further insights are appreciated.
Charles Davis Nov 27, 2018:
(Sorry, Astyages, not Astyerges; my mind was wandering. Corrected now.)
Charles Davis Nov 27, 2018:
Interesting question I don't know the answer offhand. But if the wiktionary definition is correct, only a woman can have a maternal grandchild (and conversely only a man can have a paternal grandchild). So "his maternal grandchild" should be meaningless. And yet it is used. The mother of Cyrus the Great of Persia was Mandane of Media, who was the daughter of Astyages, King of Media. So obviously Astyages was Cyrus's maternal grandfather. But in many places Cyrus is referred to as Astyages's maternal grandson, and by scholarly writers:
https://www.google.com/search?q="Astyages" "cyrus" "maternal...

So it would seem that you can say that if A is B's maternal grandfather, B is A's maternal grandchild (and similarly, mutatis mutandis, for paternal grandmother/grandchild).

There is something odd about "maternal grandchild"; one's maternal grandfather is the father of one's mother, so the word "maternal" seems reasonable, but one's maternal grandchild is the child of one's daughter, not one's mother, so "maternal" applies, as it were, to the object rather than the subject of the expression. But it's not ambiguous, so why not?
Piyush Ojha Nov 27, 2018:
The male/female kinship terms for this relationship between (both) grandparents and grandchildren in Hindi are naati/naatin which are explained in the Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary as "daughter's son, grandson" and "daughter's daughter, granddaughter".

I'd go with "daughter's child" for both maternal grandparents.
Arabic & More (asker) Nov 27, 2018:
To make things more clear... George is the father of a woman named Sally, who has a son named John. George is thus John's maternal grandfather. My question is whether John can be considered the maternal grandson of George.

If not, then what term should I more properly use?

Responses

+2
1 hr
Selected

child of a woman's daughter

I've actually never seen this term used (it may be more common in the U.K. than in the U.S.), but the Wiki definition seems logical enough, so you could use it --though keep in mind that (if my experience is any indication), it might need clarification if your intended audience is British rather than American.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2018-11-27 15:24:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Now that I read it again, Piyush's terminology ("daughter's son/daughter") is unambiguous and works for all English dialect variants.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tina Vonhof (X)
1 hr
Thanks, Tina. Though it looks like Charles' opinion about the Wiki entry has merit --esp. if the term is not in common usage in the quaint U.K. dialect. Again, I maintain that Piyush's circumlocution (around an ambiguous term) is the clearest and best.
agree Edith Kelly
3 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
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