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Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

Oekonom auf dem Venissen-Gute zu Parzham

English translation:

Husbandman on the Vennisse Estate at Parzham

Added to glossary by Timothy Wood
Apr 13, 2018 22:14
6 yrs ago
1 viewer *
German term

Oekonom auf dem Venissen-Gute zu Parzham

German to English Other History Memorial picture
Nach dem Tod der Eltern wurden die Arbeiten und Zuständigkeiten auf dem Venushof neu verteilt. Der landwirtschaftliche Großbetrieb umfasste 125 Tagwerk Ackerland, dazu Wald und Wiesen, auf denen ein Dutzend Pferde und Fohlen weideten. Hansl fiel, kurz vor dem Tod der Mutter aus der Schule entlassen, zunächst die Rolle des dritten Knechtes zu. Nach dem Tod des Vaters führte bis auf weiteres Josef als Ältester den Hof. Die jüngeren Brüder Bartholomäus und Georg gingen ihm als erster und zweiter Knecht zur Hand. Georg sollte bis zu seinem Tod im Jahr 1892 unverheiratet auf dem Hof bleiben, und als dieser in jüngere Hände ging, noch als Verwalter tätig sein: „Oekonom auf dem Venissen-Gute zu Parzham“ wird auf dem Totenbildchen des 77-jährigen stehen. Josef starb als unverheirateter Hofbauer bereits mit 59 Jahren. Bartholomäus schwängerte im Jahr 1843 noch ledig seine Geliebte Elisabeth Schwarz, die er zwei Jahre später heiratete und zu der er in den großväterlichen Weiler Bayerbach auf den Schradl-Hof zog.

What does "Oekonom" mean in this context? "Economist" does not seem to be the meaning of the term as it would be used in 19th century Bavaria.
Manager? It obviously connects back to "Verwalter", but is there another more historical term that might be appropriate?
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 Husbandman on the Vennisse Estate at Parzham
3 +4 steward
3 land goods provisioner (farmer)
References
See Grimms Wörterbuch

Discussion

Herbmione Granger Apr 18, 2018:
American Probably also why I'm repelled by "husbandman," even though it seems a legitimate translation of Oekonom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_(land)
In American English, the above connotation is the primary meaning of the word "estate" (when it is not prefaced by the word "real"). That is why the British English terms "trading estates" and "industrial estates" sound like oxymorons to Americans, as few wealthy persons would deliberately choose to live next to factories.
Herbmione Granger Apr 18, 2018:
To me "good steward" or "true steward" fits your memorial.
http://economyofgod.ccws.org/commentary/index.html

I don't like "estate," because the Hof was rich but the holders were poor.
Timothy Wood (asker) Apr 18, 2018:
Thanks Björn Sorry for the misunderstanding with regard to "estate" and "husbandman". I think we are basically on the same page now. :)
Herbmione Granger Apr 18, 2018:
Timothy, I can't really help with Venissen, except "Venus" or "venison"?
I think you misunderstood me; Oekonom may be more poetic or expansive than a synonym of land farmer.
http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/299/
Paul portrays himself as an oikonomos of God in 1 Corinthians (4.1-5; 9.16-23)

The original 1 Corinthians is in Greek.
Björn Vrooman Apr 18, 2018:
Hello Timothy I didn't argue against estate and I know what husbandman means; it didn't sit right with me for some reason, but I'm not sure I can put it in words and I did say that was your choice.

What I did argue against was the use of "Venisse":
"...if I read you correctly, you are saying that Venissen-Gut could just be 'Venus Farm'."

Yes, exactly. That's why I posted the Capuchin document; you will find only Venus-Hof in there, I think.

Just to give you an example from the Wiki link about the plural of last names:
"[plural] die Heußens, die [singular] Heuß"

Even in this case, merely dropping the -s- won't get you that person's last name.

I'm sure it's a similar issue here. You can't just drop the -n at the end because it doesn't square with Johanna's explanation either. I hope I explained this right.

Best wishes and good luck!
Timothy Wood (asker) Apr 18, 2018:
Venissen I hopefully will be able to check with the author to see if "Venissen" is correct.
Timothy Wood (asker) Apr 18, 2018:
@Björn The term "husbandman" is a cognate of "husbandry", which is essentially the care of animals/livestock, farming. I have not finished the translation, but if I read you correctly, you are saying that Venissen-Gut could just be "Venus Farm". Is that what you are saying? I actually don't mind "estate" because I actually have a now-deceased relative who was a farmer and his farms were called an "estate". "Estate" in this somewhat archaic sense denotes a large farm with a nice house on it.
Björn Vrooman Apr 18, 2018:
@Timothy Glad to be of help!

Of course, you can choose what you think fits best, although I'm not quite sure how husbandman relates to "Gutsverwalter":
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/de/worterbuch/deutsch-engl...

However, I hope you did not translate "Venissen-Gut" as "Vennisse Estate" because that would be completely wrong, IMO--not to mention that it has two -n- in the middle. It wouldn't make sense even without the double letter; "venisse" is a Latin word derived from "venir."

I think Johanna's right here; it's just a shortened form showing whose "Gut" it is. The other option would have been something akin to "Bayrischer Hof," which you don't translate as "Bayerische Estate" either. I doubt people would even make the connection in context. And all of the documents I've seen say "Venussenhof" or "Venussengut" without an -i-; it's written like this on the official birth record, if you will. There is no such thing as "Venisse." If at all, there could be a plural, including the -u-, but it's a bit tricky regarding last names (see "s-laut"):
https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hilfe:Vor-_und_Nachnamen/Gram...

Best
Timothy Wood (asker) Apr 18, 2018:
And thank you for all the links!! :)
Timothy Wood (asker) Apr 18, 2018:
@herbalchemist You are welcome! I understand that we sometimes have hints that lead us to make linguistic conclusions without considering a lot of things. I think this is a part of our profession. I find that in most circumstances it's not problematic, but when a memorial plaque or a publication is involved, the extra caution is appropriate. :)
Timothy Wood (asker) Apr 18, 2018:
@Johanna Thank you for the additional clarification about the the "Venissenhof" and "Venissen-Gut". Is there a certain phonetic/orthographic ellipsis that you were implying by the progression from "Venus-sein-Hof" to "Venissenhof"?
Timothy Wood (asker) Apr 18, 2018:
@Björn The "Venissen-Gute" is in a memorial plaque celebrating one of the Birndorfer family members. At this point, my best understanding of the variation "Venisse" is that it comes from the Old High German word for bog (fenusz). The "sz" combination may indeed have been pronounced with a final half vowel, rather than stopping with the fricative consonant. The Capuchin document is fantastic! Thank you so much for locating that.
Herbmione Granger Apr 18, 2018:
Verwalter Thanks for the kind explanation, Timothy. A final thought from me: From the style of the writing, which is about St. Conrad's brother, this might not be the profession Oekonom. I regret that I jumped to conclusions and didn't explore all the possibilities.

http://gottesdienstinstitut-nordkirche.de/wp-content/uploads...
Vers 1-2
Der Verdacht:
„Ein reicher Mann hatte einen Geschäftsführer, dieser wurde verdächtigt, seinen Besitz zu
verschleudern. Er ließ ihn rufen: Was höre ich über dich? Leg deine Bilanz vor! Du kannst
nicht weiter die Geschäfte führen.“
Der Verwalter oder Geschäftsführer, griech. Oikonómos, ist ein Mann mit weitreichenden Kompetenzen. Ein Ökonom, fit in Wirtschafts- und Rechtsdingen, tätig als Manager im Auftrag des Eigentümers eines Großunternehmens, ausgestattet mit Prokura. Eine auch
heute übliche Funktion.
Björn Vrooman Apr 15, 2018:
PS Here's a stateside document that may help Timothy:
https://www.capuchins.org/documents/conrad.bio.2017.0728.pdf

It merely says "Venushof" and "The Venushof was inherited from Conrad's Grandmother Birndorfer’s family, the Venuses."

The EN version of "Venissen-Gut" will definitely have to look a bit different.
Björn Vrooman Apr 15, 2018:
Thanks, Johanna Your "Venussen" was a tremendous help. I found this document:
http://bruder-konrad.de/Leben/Gaudentiusbuch.pdf

My follow-on question: Could this be an OCR error or a typo (u and i as adjacent keys)?

I still don't see how you get to the -i- in the middle. The document above seems to confirm that:
"Die Eintragung im Taufbuch von St. Wolfgang, der Wallfahrtskirche im Pfarrsprengel von Weng, meldet vom Jahre 1818 auf Seite 33: 'Johann Evangelist, lebendgeboren; Hebamme Katharina Haas; Vater Bartholomäus Birndorfer, Bauer, kath., auf dem Venussengut zu Parzham...'"

Best
Johanna Timm, PhD Apr 15, 2018:
venus Hl. Konrad =Johannes Birndorfer -> Venushof-Hansl- Venussen-Hof-> "Venus-sein-Hof"Venissenhof-> Venissen-Gut
Wobei Venus<- mhd. venne = sumpfige Höhe

Björn Vrooman Apr 14, 2018:
@Timothy Please double-check: "auf dem Venissen-Gute"

"Parzham" and "Venus-Hof" are right; I don't see how you get from "Venus" to "Venissen," neither based on Latin nor German. Additionally, many Ghits are false positives.

Best
Timothy Wood (asker) Apr 13, 2018:
Excellent Yes, this is what I was looking for. The term "husbandman" definitely conveys the feel of it being old. Before I decide for sure, however, I will see if there are any other answers.

Proposed translations

+2
10 mins
Selected

Husbandman on the Vennisse Estate at Parzham

Looks possible: The old word for a farmer below the rank of yeoman. A husbandman usually held his land by copyhold or leasehold tenure and may be regarded as the ‘average farmer in his locality’. The words ‘yeoman’ and ‘husbandman’ were gradually replaced in the later 18th and 19th centuries by ‘farmer’.
http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.201...

See also reference post.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2018-04-18 17:01:47 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

My pleasure, Timothy.
Note from asker:
I have chosen this answer because it has an "archaic sounding" ring to it, it is one single lexical unit, and it does not have any other connotation other than farmer. Thank you so much for your contribution.
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : I prefer Lancashireman's solution because I don't remember ever seeing this word, despite its having over 3 million hits!
36 mins
I think both options are fine. Just a matter of tone and period specificity probably. But thanks anyway, Phil.
agree David Hollywood : I agree with Phil that either your or L's suggestion would work, so going to agree with L's suggestion as well
5 hrs
Thanks, David
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I have chosen this answer because it has an "archaic sounding" ring to it, and it does not have any other connotation."
8 hrs
German term (edited): Oekonom

land goods provisioner (farmer)

I've read that it's particularly Austrian/Bavarian.

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwirt
Landwirt ist die moderne Bezeichnung für einen Beruf, gebildet aus Landbau (mit Land im Sinne von „Landschaft“ oder „Boden“) und Wirt („Wirtschafter“, „Hauswirt“, „Ökonom“).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2018-04-14 19:51:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Y'all can laugh. This is goin' in my book.

https://www.brownstoner.com/architecture/vinegar-hill-brookl...
In 1915, a one-story extension was built in the back for provisioner Ferdinand Rohde, specifically for the purpose of smoking sausages.
Note from asker:
Hello Herbalchemist, Thank you for your answer. I decided to go with "husbandman" because it is one single lexical unit. Your answer is definitely good and regionally appropriate, just a bit longer than I need for a memorial plaque.
Something went wrong...
+4
13 mins
German term (edited): Oekonom

steward

https://www.etymonline.com/word/steward



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 days (2018-04-19 01:06:13 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

You're welcome. I'm a bit surprised, though, that you consider 1892 to be "archaic". Husbandman is so archaic, it's biblical. I am also puzzled why steward would need "room to explain it in the translation" whereas husbandman wouldn't.
Note from asker:
Hi Lancashireman, I have chosen husbandman for this because it has an "archaic sounding" ring to it, and it does not have any other connotation. Steward has a few other connotations, which could be more distracting. Thank you so much for your contribution. I would use your answer if I had room to explain it in the translation.
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
33 mins
agree David Hollywood : really hard to say here
5 hrs
agree Björn Vrooman : Fitting: http://www.mnfarmliving.com/2013/04/are-todays-farmers-good-... Used Grimms' and Douglas Harper's before; don't get distracted by Landwirt. Also, farmer replaced husbandman as early as the 16th century.
17 hrs
agree Herbmione Granger : I think "steward" fits well here, although IMO it's missing a je ne sais quoi.
19 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

6 mins
Reference:

See Grimms Wörterbuch

ökonom, m., entlehnt aus griech.-lat. oeconomus, haus-, landwirt, sodann überhaupt einer der zu wirtschaften und zu sparen versteht: dasz sie gute oeconom und hauszhalter gewesen. Albertinus der welt tummel- u. schauplatz (1617) 976; was man sonst von ökonomen wünschen hört, den höchsten grad von cultur mit einer gewissen mäszigen wohlhabenheit, das sieht man hier (Schweiz) vor augen. Göthe 43, 216; so waren sie doch viel zu gute ökonomen, um etwas überflüssiges und zweckloses zu thun. Wieland 28, 39;
nun bestell dein haus als ökonom.
Rückert brahm. 20, 39.
http://woerterbuchnetz.de/cgi-bin/WBNetz/wbgui_py?sigle=DWB&...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree philgoddard
36 mins
Thanks, Phil
Something went wrong...
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