This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
We also feel something in the subjective sense
ambiguity?

Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

a structural necessity for sub-groups

English answer:

sub-groups are necessary to maintain the social structure

Added to glossary by updownK
Jun 7, 2017 11:33
6 yrs ago
1 viewer *
English term

a structural necessity for sub-groups

English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
"Drug knowledge originated mostly with males because they tend to be more venturesome – an outgrowth of male aggression. You've read your Orange Catholic Bible, thus you know the story of Eve and the apple. Here's an interesting fact about that story: Eve was not the first to pluck and sample the apple. Adam was first and he learned by this to put the blame on Eve. My story tells you something about how our societies find A STRUCTURAL NECESSITY FOR SUB-GROUPS."
--quoted from the SF fiction God Emperor of Dune (link: https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=“STRUCTURAL NECESSIT...

Orange Catholic Bible here is an adapted version of our Bible, so it has a difference story about Genesis.
What does A STRUCTURAL NECESSITY FOR SUB-GROUPS mean? Does SUB-GROUP refer to "family" as the structural unit of society? Even so I cannot figure out the relation between the story and the last sentence.
Responses
4 +5 sub-groups are necessary to maintain the social structure
3 +3 inherent need for lower-status groups (for scapegoating)
3 +1 an underlying requisite for [the existence of] classes of a subordinated nature

Discussion

JohnMcDove Jun 8, 2017:
Thank you very much for the excellent links! I don't think we need to split participles, infinitives and hairs. It may be my poor Latin background, but to me, even if it is just "often", this one seems to be one of the contexts where it may be particularly applicable.

We hope the discussion is useful to UpdownK. As Nancy Willard said, or wrote, "Sometimes questions are more important than answers".

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sub-

On the other hand, I recognize I will have to study up on the Duke of Lemonade, as nobody covered the subject before or after the LOGSE (Spanish Educational Law)! ;-)
B D Finch Jun 8, 2017:
What is a subgroup? Not always subordinate, because a higher status group, against which a subordinate one is defined, is also a subgroup

https://www.thoughtco.com › ... › Social Sciences › Sociology › Key Concepts
Definition: A subgroup is a collection of people who identify themselves as members of a group that is also part of a larger social system to which they belong.

http://sociologydictionary.org/subgroup/
subgroup
(noun) “[A] distinct and often subordinate group within a group” (Princeton University 2010).

http://www.ldoceonline.com/Sociology-topic/subgroup
sub‧group /ˈsʌbɡruːp/ noun [countable] a separate, smaller, and sometimes less important part of a group
JohnMcDove Jun 7, 2017:
@ UpdownK, "sub-" seems to refer simply to "subordinate groups". Good or bad, or otherwise.
updownK (asker) Jun 7, 2017:
@ philgoddard "My story" here just refers to the Adam/Eve story. But indeed this story is a hint to a plot of the novel: Malky, an evil man, designed and produced Hwi, an innocent girl, with his own gene to harm the Emporor Leto (the speaker), so Hwi acted as a scapegoat of Malky. But I'm not sure what SUB-GROUPS refers to. Evil/innocent one groups? Good/bad one groups?
philgoddard Jun 7, 2017:
We don't actually know what "my story" refers to. It's presumably mentioned just before your extract. Is it another example of blaming others for your misfortunes?
The more of these questions I see, the more I think Herbert is good at telling stories, but not at writing English.

Responses

+5
12 mins
Selected

sub-groups are necessary to maintain the social structure

My interpretation.

Incidentally, I think that "Orange Catholic Bible" should be seen as a joke. Herbert did set some of his stories in Ireland.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 mins (2017-06-07 11:48:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A sub-group is any group within the main society and can be based on gender, family, status or whatever else may be used to divide a society into groups.
Note from asker:
Thanks! But still not sure about the relation between SUB-GROUPS and the story.
Peer comment(s):
agree Charlesp
26 mins
Thanks Charles
agree Mair A-W (PhD)
34 mins
Thanks Mair
agree Yvonne Gallagher : Most people here won't get the "Orange Catholic" joke...//I doubt that very much! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order
54 mins
Thanks Gallagy. I think most British, Irish and Irish American people will get it.
agree JohnMcDove : Generally speaking I agree with this too. (We are missing a lot of context, at least in my case, but that is the general idea.)
12 hrs
Thanks John
agree Yasutomo Kanazawa
17 hrs
Thanks Yasutomo
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you! I think your answer is most accurate."
+3
13 mins

inherent need for lower-status groups (for scapegoating)

This is how I read this in the context of the quoted paragraph.

Societies need sub-groups -- I think it means groups of lower status here, not just smaller groups -- in order to apportion blame/scapegoat, and this need is structural, ie inherent to the nature of (human?) societies.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 48 mins (2017-06-07 12:21:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think it CAN also just mean sub-groups as such (smaller groups within larger groups) not necessarily lower-status ones, though the Adam/Eve example suggests this specific interpretation. Hard to say without access to more of the text.

Definitely not family units, though.
Note from asker:
Thanks! I will think over it.
Peer comment(s):
agree Charlesp
25 mins
neutral philgoddard : I think this is more likely, but I'd like to see the full context.
2 hrs
agree JohnMcDove : I tend to agree with this idea. :-)
12 hrs
agree Yasutomo Kanazawa
17 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
12 hrs

an underlying requisite for [the existence of] classes of a subordinated nature

I am giving you an "orthopaedic" translation (meaning, not necessarily in "good" or "natural" English), nonetheless, it may help you to get the idea. (Providing I got it right, without further context!)

sub-
1.2 Of a smaller size; of a subordinate nature.
‘subculture’
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sub-

Here is a good and simple explanation for the "Orange Catholic Bible"

http://www.shmoop.com/dune/orange-catholic-bible-symbol.html

In other words, I think he is talking about a basic need, to have a "group of people", call it "class", "sub-" "subordinated" to you, so you can "blame" on them.

The "old" saying that "sh*t rolls downhill" may be somewhat applicable here.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shit rolls do...

Good luck!
Note from asker:
Thanks! I will think over the uphill/downhill group pattern. And I seem got the joking point mentioned by Finch in your second link.
Peer comment(s):
agree acetran
12 mins
Thank you very much, Acetran. :-)
neutral B D Finch : There is a sociological difference between a class and a sub-group. The explanation in your 2nd reference dates "Orange" from the 1960s, while it actually dates from William of Orange, some 300 years earlier.//I charge for sociology and history lessons!
8 hrs
Thank you! Which is? --(What is the "difference"?) / As for the "Orange Bible", I doubt the ST refers to William of Orange 300 years earlier. If so, how?
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search