Jul 24, 2015 03:59
8 yrs ago
8 viewers *
French term

vente à la découpe

French to English Bus/Financial Finance (general)
Une vente à la découpe est la transformatoin d'un immeuble en pleine propriété en une copropriété dans le but de procéder à une vente de la totalité de l'immeuble lot par lot.

Discussion

Charlie Bavington Jul 25, 2015:
bit late now, but... I had this term a couple of months ago. In the end, I put "condominium conversion/split sale" because readership was potentially anyone from anywhere. Sometimes there is little choice but to do so - I thought it worth mentioning.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 25, 2015:
@NJ "Condo conversion" is probably the right solution in fact, if "condo" and "conversion" are used in that way in Canada. The "conversion" part describes not only the conversion of the building (if necessary) but also, if not essentially, the change in the nature of the ownership. It goes from sole to multiple ownership upon "conversion". The conversion is indeed the sale. I agree with François that with the proviso that the meaning of "condominium conversion" has the same meaning in Canada as in the US, then it would be a good fit. You need to be careful in expressing the rest of the sentence to avoid repetition in which case, the meaning is lost.

For a British target, then "split sale" is the term used for such situations, as illustrated.

"Property division" is an undertranslation but which has the merit of being saved by the rest of the sentence in this particular instance.
nweatherdon (asker) Jul 25, 2015:
@ Nikki Thank you, that's a good point. Unfortunately I already had to submit the file and I was careful in other parts of the phrasing, but your solution appears best.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 25, 2015:
Proz glossary Hello again. I pointed out in my 1st discussion post that there was at least one glossary entry here for this term. I noticed it on Google. I have only just taken a look at it now. Reference posted in an additional note in my answer post. See below.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 25, 2015:
@NJ Property division might work for later parts of the sentence, depending on how you phrase this. However, you could divide a property without selling it, you can sell it without division. The whole idea of the "vente à la découpe" is that the property is divided and sold. The phrase defines that term. If you do not explicitly include the notion of "vente" (sale) in your term at the start of the sentence you will only be telling half the story and basically missing the point.
nweatherdon (asker) Jul 25, 2015:
@ Francois Oh, I get your point now. It's being translated into US English. I think they use the condo system there too. I'm leaning towards property division though.
Francois Boye Jul 25, 2015:
@ Asker:

France is not English speaking, is it? So what do you do? Do you adopt an English Canadian translation or a British translation or an American translation?
nweatherdon (asker) Jul 24, 2015:
It`s in France.
Francois Boye Jul 24, 2015:
@ Asker:

Is the condominium system used and known in Canada?
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jul 24, 2015:
I think you will find "split sale" as a suggestion already in the glossary. It is one of the entries which appears when you do a Google search for "vente à la découpe" without any other keys words. Whatever the term used to describie the division into units, it is essential that your EN rendering includes the notion of "sale" which, with all due respect, none of the first three suggestions has yet accounted for.

As I have stuck my neck out, I risk having my head chopped off. I would not dare say what I have said without having done reeasrch first. I have done some. I'm putting my answer together and will post. I hope to come up with something useable and with reliable references to substantiate what I suggest.

Proposed translations

+1
15 hrs
Selected

split sale

So, first for the notion of « vente à la découpe » à la française.
The term is used in fairly formal contexts : http://www.foncia-valorisation.fr/vente-immeubles.html The notion is very evocative and it is easy to understand what is meant. You take a whole and it is sold off in individual units. Here’s a general summary of who, what, where, when and why : http://www.vente-appartement-occupe.com/en/vente-decoupe-ven... It’s common enough a term for Wikipedia to have a succinct entry on the subject : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vente_à_la_découpe There are also a fair number of estate agent website which provide explanations as to what it is. Here’s just one which provides a rather lengthy set of explanations covering various situations in which it may arise and what duties and obligations arise : http://www.logic-immo.com/guide-immobilier/bien-acheter/vent...
What is is called in English? Well, the Proz entry already suggests “split sale”. Are there any reliable references for that?

http://www.green-acres.com/en/properties/51926.htm
Possibility of a split sale in two lots:
Le Petit Couvent 380 000 €
The 3 Cottages 460 000 €

http://www.c21selectgroup.com/properties/fallbrook-californi...
31 06 TOTAL ACRES AT THIS WELL MANICURED LAND 3 FULLY LEGALLY SPLIT PARCELS ARE INCLUDED IN THE SALES PRICE APN-108-1003-200 (27 71 ACRES), APN-108-100-32-00 (1 95 ACRES), APN-108-100-34-00 (1 40 ACRES) THERE IS A CLEAR AND GRADED PAD WITH ALL UTILITIES FOR FUTURE CUSTOM HOME SITE HOUSE PLAN HAVE ALREADY BEEN APPROVED AND READY FOR BUILD OUT OTHER HOMES SITES ARE ALSO POSSIBLE ON THE OTHER TWO PARCELS GENTLE TOPOGRAPHY, IN A LOCATION WITH VIEWS OF CITY LIGHTS,PANORAMIC VIEWS OF THE SURROUNDING VALLEY, WITH A YEAR ROUND CREEK THAT FLOWS THROUGH THE LANDSCAPE THE SITE ALSO INCLUDES ALL UTILITIES FROM SEPTIC,WATER,ELECTRIC METER, AND ELECTRIC POLES A GREAT PRICE AND INVESTMENT POTENTIAL FOR 3 FULLY SPLIT PARCELS
© 2015 California Regional Multiple Listing Service, Inc.
Courtesy of Coldwell Banker Res-Vail Ranch.

A FR/EN source with a glossary in FR and in EN:

http://www.cbre.fr/fr_fr/etudes/etudes_lexique which explains the difference between “block sale” (sale of several units to one owner) and the reverse, a “split sale” (sale of several units to several different owners):
- Blocks of premises : Two approaches are used to appraise the market value of blocks of premises, in particular blocks of flats.
o Either the sale of the whole block
o Or the sale unit by unit (flat by flat, split sales)

- Block sale : Sale of an entire multiple occupancy building to the same person or body corporate, bought with the intention of making a profit when the building is sold, often by selling the building in units.
- Co-ownership : A form of ownership in which an entire building or group of buildings is owned by several people. The property is split into several units, each unit having a private area and a share in the common areas. The law of 10/07/1965 and its decree of application of 17/03/1967 instituted a widely mandatory single regime.

- Property agent : Specific to France, a property agent is a broker who buys real estate for his own benefit himself, then sells the property (either in its entirety or split into units) with the aim of making a profit. - See more at: http://www.cbre.fr/fr_fr/etudes/etudes_lexique#sthash.e9jCDl...

http://portal.cbre.eu/portal/page/portal/fr_fr/etudes/etudes...
hhhh
- Immeubles collectifs :
Deux approches de la valeur vénale peuvent être pratiquées pour les immeubles collectifs, en particulier pour le logement :
o soit une vente « en bloc »,
o soit une cession lot par lot (« vente à la découpe »).

- Marchand de biens : Professionnel dont l’activité consiste à acheter des immeubles pour son propre compte et les revendre ensuite en bloc ou à la découpe avec l’intention de réaliser une plus value. -





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Note added at 21 hrs (2015-07-25 01:03:55 GMT)
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"Une vente à la découpe est la transformatoin d'un immeuble en pleine propriété en une copropriété dans le but de procéder à une vente de la totalité de l'immeuble lot par lot."

A split sale is the transformation of a freehold building into a co-ownership/condominium (or whatever term you are using here) with the aim of selling the whole block, unit by unit.

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Note added at 21 hrs (2015-07-25 01:04:43 GMT)
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For "selling" you may prefer "disposing of".

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Note added at 21 hrs (2015-07-25 01:06:49 GMT)
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The terms "en pleine propriété" can also be rendered in a number of ways, depending on how the property in qustion is actually held, not to mention the country where your target reader is based.

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Note added at 21 hrs (2015-07-25 01:33:28 GMT)
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Previous entries in the ProZ glossaries :

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/real_estate/3288...

This one does point out the meaning of "split sale" can have a different meaning (=split commission if 2 parties work on a sale). It does also raise the term "condo conversion" as being useful for the US, which is understood in the UK too, but I argue is accurate for the terms "transformation ... en copropriété" for example, but fails to answer the question of "vente" ; it deals with the definition of the term, not the term itself. It is like saying a condo covnersion is a condo conversion. If the word "sale" does not appear, then you are going to have problems with the rest of your sentence.

The other glossary entry :
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/real_estate/9339...



Have you noticed that your sentence is identical, word for word, to the question psoted in 2009?

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Note added at 1 day2 hrs (2015-07-25 06:43:58 GMT)
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It is essential to go back to the context and see how to make it all fit together.
I am not saying that this is not a condominium conversion here. It obviously describes precisely that so agree that it is a condo conversion here.
What I am saying however, is that in the context of the sentence, the condo conversion appears later in the definition provided in the term "copropriété". The difficulty is avoiding saying a condo is a condo.

"Une vente à la découpe est la transformatoin d'un immeuble en pleine propriété en une copropriété dans le but de procéder à une vente de la totalité de l'immeuble lot par lot."

Does this work?

"A condominium conversion is the conversion of a building in sole ownership into a condominium with the aim of selling the whole block, unit by unit."

Th

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Note added at 1 day2 hrs (2015-07-25 06:52:26 GMT)
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I admit to having misread the "conversion" here does describes the conversion not only of the building itself (if necessary, which is not always the case) , but the conversion of the nature of the ownership.

I knew that a condo invovled multiple ownership.
In my mind "condo covnersion" was limited to the building and not the alternation of the nature of the ownership.

I was also fixing on my British understanding. I'd maintain my suggestion for a British context, but this is Canadian. With careful phrasing - taking care to avoid saying a condo is a condo - of "condo conversion" has the same meaning in Canada, then that is the best solution for the target.

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Note added at 1 day3 hrs (2015-07-25 07:24:02 GMT)
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Candian law of condominium conversion probably vary from province ot province.
Ontario has a Condominium Act dating back to 1998 and there is apparently some change underway at the very moment.
The 1998 Ontario law by way of example : http://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/98c19

here is a thesis which dsecribes how the term "condo conversion" means not just (or not necessarily) conversion of the building but also the legal change of status.

https://circle.ubc.ca/bitstream/handle/2429/26916/UBC_1987_A...

See page 3, section 1.2., The Condominium Conversion Phenomenon".




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Note added at 1 day3 hrs (2015-07-25 07:27:56 GMT)
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If your target reader is (was, as it's now gone), then my Canadian refs are neither use nor ornament!
Peer comment(s):

agree Charlie Bavington : Fine if UK readership.
14 hrs
;-)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
1 hr

property dividing

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6 hrs

subdividing (property)

Another take.
Peer comment(s):

neutral B D Finch : Subdivision doesn't necessarily create a "copropriété".
2 hrs
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : This overlooks the "vente" aspect.
14 hrs
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+2
7 hrs

condominium conversion

This is the US expression to indicate the transformation of a building into condos, i.e., sub-units (flats/apartments, offices) jointly owned.

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Note added at 8 hrs (2015-07-24 12:02:39 GMT)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium_conversion

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Note added at 8 hrs (2015-07-24 12:30:57 GMT)
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Joint ownership means that the owners of the sub-units are jointly responsible for the building as a whole, which is why there is a condominium (condo) association in which each owner is represented.

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Note added at 9 hrs (2015-07-24 13:22:26 GMT)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium

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Note added at 18 hrs (2015-07-24 22:05:45 GMT)
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Each member of a condo association must pay a condo fee to participate in the maintenance of the commons (utilities, lawn, pool, parking lot, playground (if any), etc...).

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Note added at 22 hrs (2015-07-25 02:10:36 GMT)
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America is about business! Condominium conversion is done to transform a property into units for sale! Nikki focuses only on the concept of conversion but misses the concept of condominium. The building becomes a condominium when its components are sold to owners jointly responsible for the maintenance of the building.

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Note added at 22 hrs (2015-07-25 02:15:24 GMT)
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The link below about copropriete en France is clear-cut: it says that 'copropriete' = condominium in the United States. So I have solved Asker's problem.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copropriété

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Note added at 1 day7 hrs (2015-07-25 11:56:34 GMT)
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Let me give an example that proves that condominium conversion entails selling properties. A development company owning a building in any downtown can rent out the offices included in its building. In such a case, the companies renting office space pays a rent each month and the development company is in charge of its building's commons.

What happens in case of condominium conversion is the following: a) the development company sells its office space to those companies that used to rent, b) those renting companies become owners of their office space, c) a condo association including all new owners is created to manage the commons and pay for the commons's upkeep. Those 3 elements take place at the same time because the building was sold as a condominium.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Accurate desc. of the condo but does not describe how the units are sold.//Links are OK but the term "condo conv." describes that the bldg is divided. It does not specify that is is sold///.Yes I did. Sale is in there : suggested rendering?
7 hrs
The units are sold separately from one another; but all the unit owners are part of a condo association managing the commons (parking lot, playground, utilities) and paying for its upkeep. The links I provided are explicit//Did you read my links?
agree Charlie Bavington : Fine if your target audience understands what a "condominium conversion" actually is :-)
22 hrs
Thanks!
agree Michele Fauble
1 day 6 hrs
Thanks!
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Reference comments

3 hrs
Reference:

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