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Aliment d'embouche
Feb 6, 2015 09:03
9 yrs ago
6 viewers *
French term

en retrait

French to English Other Wine / Oenology / Viticulture
Description du millisme 1900:


Très comparables au 1899, leur richessse, leur souplesse et leur velouté leur ont donné une supériorité tardive sur l'année précédente. Les blancs secs sont excellents quoique légèrement en retrait. Une très grande année pour les Sauternes avec des vins d'une grande élégance.
Proposed translations (English)
2 +5 slightly inferior to previous years
3 +2 slightly reticent (on the nose)
4 To fall short
3 +1 not quite up to the standard of ...
4 although slightly sub-par
4 yields are lower
References
en retrait

Discussion

Howard Sugar Feb 6, 2015:
Sorry that was a translation from English, the English expression is Reticent A wine that is not exhibiting much aroma or bouquet characteristics perhaps due to its youth. It can be described as the sense that a wine is "holding back".
Howard Sugar Feb 6, 2015:
I found this defintion "(Reticent) Un vin qui n'est pas expose un grand arôme ou caractéristiques bouquet peut-être en raison de sa jeunesse. Il peut être décrit comme le sens où un vin est "retient"..
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
@Carol Jump on you like a ton of bricks? Perish the thought! I'm very grateful, as always, to be educated :-)

I don't think there is more to be said here. In principle I find it plausible that "en retrait" could mean "reticent" in relation to wine. What I find difficult to understand is that some people feel the alternative doesn't make sense. If the general quality of the 1900 vintage of blancs secs is being compared with that of 1899, and is rated 16 in 1900 and 17 in 1899, isn't it obvious that both are excellent but that 1900 is a little less excellent than 1899? That's all "inferior" means here. And if this same source uses "en retrait" elsewhere to refer to the lesser quality of one year compared with another, as I have shown it does, I cannot see how the plausibility of this reading can reasonably be doubted. Which doesn't mean that it must be right, but does mean that it could be.
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
OK, before you jump on me like a ton of bricks! The grape varieties will of course NOT vary from year to year for any particular wine! But the vintage reports do of course, and these reflect how the conditions and management have affected each individual wine in the year in question
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
Unlike some other fields, you really can't generalise at all with wine translations. You'll find that tasting notes vary for each wine and with each vintage. Otherwise, there would be no need for all the tasting notes that I translate for every wine for each vintage, as they would always be the same! I'm quite sure that a wine that is reticent one year may not necessarily be reticent the following year. This of course applies to all the other qualities that a wine may possess, and which definitely vary from vintage to vintage as well as from variety to variety, depending on the season (weather, disease, green harvesting, and other vineyard management techniques, etc, etc)
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
One further point that occurs to me is that this is a statement about all 1900 dry white Bordeaux. It seems to me that reticence is normally a characteristic of particular wines, and wines that are reticent would probably be so in all vintages, though perhaps in varying ways and degrees. The idea of all the dry white wines from a region being reticent in one particular year seems strange to me, though I don't claim to be an expert.
Georgie Scott Feb 6, 2015:
searching "légèrement en retrait" For reference, I found that example by searching "légèrement en retrait" after "vins" + "en retrait" only returned references to yield. There are probably similar searches that could be done to investigate further but I'm trying to take a day off today so instead I'm going to return to my book and bacon sandwich
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
The problem with wine terms is that they are pretty much NEVER used in the standard way. Another problem - at least in my fairly extensive experience of wine translations - is that they are frequently quite sloppily put together, or even in a form of shorthand. Of course, this isn't always the case, especially in, e.g., a reputable wine journal, but it is pretty frequent in blogs. So you can't always rely on the syntax...
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
Of course there's nothing wrong with it! It makes perfect sense and it's something that could well be said. I repeat, I'm not saying that the text we have here can't possibly mean that, simply that I think it's unlikely (because it would be an unusual use of "en retrait") and that the suggested alternative seems very likely to me.
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
@ Charles, I understand your point entirely! However, I still see nothing wrong with "the whites are excellent, if little reticent".
This just means that they will presumably get even better as their aromas develop with age
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
In short, I think the idea that describing wines, as opposed to aspects of their flavour or nose (an important distinction), as "en retrait" means that they are reticent has almost zero documentary support, which, combined with the fact that it really does seem to me to refer to a slight fall in the quality rating, makes me feel that it would be unwise to interpret it like that. If French wine descriptions use "en retrait" to mean reticent, why can't I find examples when I peruse pages of results?
Karen Henry (asker) Feb 6, 2015:
@Charles Yes, I see your point. My husband who was a French sommelier originally came up with the same suggestion as you...
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
Conversely From the same site I referred to in my reference, which is where "en retrait" being used like this:

"Un millésime un peu en retrait des années qui l'on précédé."
"Une excellente année quoique qu'un peu en retrait des 1985 et 1990."
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
@Charles, That may well be the case, but we have to bear in mind that there are a good many more French tasting terms than there are English ones. Which means that there could well be more than one French translation for the English term "reticent". If you look at the definitions I found above, you'll see that they are in fact a pretty close match. Enough to convince me at any rate!
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
@Karen There are lots like that, as I've said. The "moelleux" is an element of the flavour. That's not the same as describing the wine itself as "en retrait".

The second example, "Plus en retrait", could be interpreted either way.
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
e.g. https://books.google.es/books?id=5IhmBAAAQBAJ&q=reticent#v=s...

And try searching for "nez discret".
Karen Henry (asker) Feb 6, 2015:
Other references! I've just done a search (should have done this first I think -- sorry!) through the document (some 50,000 words) and have found two other references: "En bouche, ils sont d'une attaque assez vive, avec un moelleux en retrait et une finale un peu sévère." and "Plus en retrait, les vins blancs se sont exprimés avec parcimonie nécessitant quelques années de patience avant de révéler leur identité."
These seem to confirm Gallagy's idea I think.
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
@Carol So am I. I'm saying that wine glossaries give discret for reticent: a reticent wine is un vin discret.
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
@ Charles I'm not talking about reticence in general, but only in relation to wine. It is a specific tasting term, and I'm now pretty convinced that this is also the use of "en retrait" here, having finally found one or two sites that seem to support this.
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
@Carol No problem at all finding examples of "en retrait" referring to something about the flavour or nose being "backward" or in the background; there are loads of examples. Rather less of it meaning reticent in general; I think Interpreterwhisky's example probably fits the bill but I haven's seen others and I think that would usually be "discret". So glossaries suggest. Personally I think it is very unlikely that "en retrait" means that here and I cannot see any reasonable objection to the quality-related interpretation; on the contrary, the context strongly points to it, since it's all about 1900 compared with 1899 and all about general levels of quality.

What distinguishes 1900 dry whites from other Bordeau is that the others are better than 1899 but the dry whites are not quite as good. That's what it's all about.
Karen Henry (asker) Feb 6, 2015:
Thanks for all of your help, I've just read all of your comments with great interest! Although Charles's theory seemed quite plausible I’m inclined to agree with Carol that Gallagy's suggestion seems more likely here.
I should just add that there are quite a few contradictory sentences in the French text, such as: "Une année assez moyenne, avec des vins rouges légers, fins et d'une grande élégance." Thanks again!
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
Later: I HAVE found this: "puissance aromatique un peu en retrait". Not a définition as such, but the context does seem to conform with the "reticence" definition, above. I think I'm convinced!
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
Nice one, IW! I think "«C’est droit, légèrement en retrait, mais tellement fin.»" firmly rules out my suggestion regarding quantity. And, to be honest, it seems to point to Gallagy's suggestion. But before voting for this, I'd want to compare the respective definitions of "en retrait"(in the context of wine) and "reticent"

According to Wikipedia (OK, not necessarily the Oracle but perhaps a good starting point!), Reticent : A wine that is not exhibiting much aroma or bouquet characteristics perhaps due to its youth. It can be described as the sense that a wine is "holding back".
...
This certainly seems to fit with a general sense of "en retrait". However, wine terms are so specific that they cannot be guessed at. Unfortunately, my searches for both vin and en retrait are still all throwing up sites connected with the wine market and production, which is not helping! What I'm looking for is a reliable definition in French of "en retrait" specifically in connection with wine! Failing that, I'd opt for "reticent", but also query it with the outsourcer just to be absolutely sure…

Georgie Scott Feb 6, 2015:
One for Charles I found one: http://blogue.saq.com/cellier/en-premiere-saq-quelques-coups... but so far I did only find one.
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
Collins Robert No disagreement from me: it's a fantastic dictionary and has served me very well over many years.
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
Gallagy's suggestion could be right, but I would want to see examples of "en retrait" meaning reticent in French texts before going that way. All I have seen in my own research is "en retrait" meaning that a certain element of the flavour is, as it were, in the background compared with other elements; I haven't seen it used as a decriptor for the flavour (or the nose) in general.
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
Inferior quality certainly does imply "not very good", so if I were going to use that option, I'd definitely rephrase it!
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
I will say, though, that "excellent but slightly inferior" does sound contradictory, because "inferior" is often used to mean "not very good", and I wouldn't put it like that. I suggested "not quite as good" in my comment on James's answer, and something along those lines (or "of a slightly lower standard") would probably make it clearer.
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
You're right, it does say dry whites ;) But I stick - albeit not exclusively - by my trusty Collins Robert. It's pretty good, and usually includes pretty much all of the possible meanings, with clear examples. But, if a particular use isn't included, then I'd certainly need to search further before assuming it doesn't exist at all. I hadn't found Charles's excellent reference, but even this is somewhat vague in how to actually interpret it. As far as I'm concerned, I'm yet to be totally convinced! If it is talking about quality, then Gallagy's suggestion seems a strong possibility
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
Excellent but slightly inferior makes perfect sense. If I get an A in an exam, that's excellent. But if I got an A+ last year, my mark this year is slightly inferior. If you like, you could say that excellent is slightly inferior to outstanding. Excellent doesn't mean as good as it can possibly be.
James Peel Feb 6, 2015:
Blancs secs went down not the liquoreux
Charles Davis Feb 6, 2015:
@Carol As I read it, "en retrait" refers only to the dry whites, not to the Sauternes. The following sentence about Sauternes is separate.

With great respect to Collins I would not regard it or any other dictionary as an exclusive and decisive authority. In any case, it is quite clear that "en retrait" can refer to yield, so the Collins entry is quite correct. The point is that yield is not the only thing it can refer to.
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
… from 17/20 to 19/20 If this is the case, then "en retrait" here cannot refer to quality. Nor does Collins support this sense in any of its definitions for "en retrait".

I d
Carol Gullidge Feb 6, 2015:
Sorry Charles, no room to finish my comment under your Reference!

What I would add is if the question relates to Sauternes as the wording suggests, this is in fact classed as a "blanc liquoreux", so the rating actually went UP by 2 points in 1900, and not down!

Proposed translations

+5
28 mins
Selected

slightly inferior to previous years

A suggestion
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : No, I believe this refers to production/yields, and not to the quality of the wine itself. Try googling "en retrait" + "vin", and you'll see what I mean!//For me, "the whites are excellent, albeit slightly inferior" simply doesn't work!
23 mins
See my comment on your entry - but I am no expert here - hence my certainty level of 2 for my answer!
agree Edgar Bettridge : definitely can refer to yield, or quality or for that matter price. However, I think quality fits better in context.
41 mins
Thanks Edgar
agree Charles Davis : See reference: previous year, not years, but does refer to quality. Maybe something like "not quite as good (as 1899)" would give it the right emphasis.
52 mins
Thanks Charles - yes you are quite right - the context is there, so better would just be "slightly inferior" without anything after it
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : how can it be "inferior" and "excellent" simultaneously? Doesn't make any sense.
1 hr
agree Georgie Scott : But I don't like the phrasing. I'd go with "not quite as good as" or something less negative.
1 hr
agree James A. Walsh : I'd go with "not quite as good as", too.
4 hrs
agree acetran
9 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
24 mins

To fall short

The white wine being expected to be at the same level as the previous one, this one fell short (slightly short).
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : can you explain what you mean by "white wine… at the same level as the previous one"? Are you talking about the quality here?//For me, "the whites are excellent, albeit poorer quality" simply doesn't work
29 mins
My interpretation is more about rating in this instance.
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+1
2 hrs

not quite up to the standard of ...

"excellents quoique légèrement en retrait" > excellent, even if not quite up to the standard of ...
Peer comment(s):
agree Charles Davis : I'm convinced this is the sense
8 mins
Thanks Charles
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5 hrs
French term (edited): quoique légèrement en retrait

although slightly sub-par

"légèrement en retrait" is non-specific as to the taste itself (unlike the E "reticent").

About a bottle of chateauneuf-du-pape :
Had this bottle completely to myself since others were not drinking. This bottle was generally consistent with my previous notes ***although slightly sub-par***. I'm wondering if this is going through a bit of an awkward stage, or if there is some slight bottle variation at play.

http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?Classic=1&PrinterFrien...
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+2
1 hr

slightly reticent (on the nose)

is how I'd read this, the wine is "holding back" not giving yup its aromas immediately.


Carol may be right and it's about yield but I don't see "chiffres" mentioned anywhere?
I also don't see how wine can be "excellent" and "inferior" at the sametime?

http://www.macchiawines.com/Education/Glossary
http://renaissancevintners.com/tag/white-wine/
Will improve, as is slightly reticent initially.
http://www.wine-pages.com/forum/tnotes/bord03.htm
http://www.wine-pages.com/forum/tnotes/france.htm
http://www.angelbeckswine.com/items/cellar_notes?itemid=4341...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2015-02-06 11:04:47 GMT)
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http://www.specialitywines.com/usa_wines.html
Monte Bello
Proprietary Red
Ridge

RP - The just-bottled 2010 Monte Bello combines pure structure and power in a rich, full-bodied style for this wine. Waves of dark red fruit, crushed rocks, flowers, mint and grilled herbs wrap around the long, insistent finish. Today, the 2010 is slightly more reticent than it was last year, but the wine comes to life the more it sits in the glass.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2015-02-06 18:41:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I really don't have the time (or inclination for that matter)to get into a long discussion (or more likely, a contradiction) about this or go searching for examples. However, I will say that (unlike some people commenting here) I have a lot of experience in translating wine texts (from French) over many years and I HAVE come upon this term before with THIS meaning.
I honestly can't see how "inferior" would fit here even though you have 3 answerers suggesting this. None of them have provided any examples to prove this. The context imo is NOT at all clearcut but "inferior" just isn't logical.
Peer comment(s):
neutral James Peel : The sentence is about the 1900 wines, and starts with "compared to the 1899 vintage" - hence the whites are excellent, although slightly inferior - see Charles's research below
4 mins
makes no sense at all imo
agree Georgie Scott : Potentially this too :) I think the context could just as much argue in favour of this reading, even if "en retrait" normally seems to be used as a comparison.
42 mins
many thanks...busy so no time to search for examples in Fr but have used this before
agree Carol Gullidge : I've changed my mind after further research reveals a pretty close match (see Suggestions box!)
1 hr
Many thanks Carol...up to my eyes today so no time to get into discusssion...
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46 mins

yields are lower

production has fallen slightly

This is in fact about the production figures rather than describing the wine itself.

Collins: "en retrait…. notre chiffre d'affaires est en léger retrait par rapport aux années précédentes -> turnover has dropped slightly compared to previous years"

Vin : la France détrône l'Italie et retrouve son premier rang
www.lesechos.fr/0203884414522.htm
Translate this page
23 Oct 2014 - 2014 sera la plus petite récolte de vin italien en soixante cinq ans. La production mondiale est en retrait de 6 %, selon les estimations de l'OIV…

12 La France redevient championne du monde de la ...
www.leparisien.fr/.../la-france-redevient-championne-...
Translate this page
23 Oct 2014 - La France redevient en 2014 le premier producteur mondial de vin ... qui s' annonce pourtant «moyenne», et en retrait après les records de …

Le marché du vin en chiffres - SudOuest.fr
www.sudouest.fr/.../le-marche-du-vin-en-chiffres-177... - Translate this page
25 Dec 2014 - Un spécialiste de l'agroalimentaire du Crédit agricole décrit le marché mondial du vin en 2014. La production (271 millions d'hl) est en retrait …

[PDF]Vins tranquilles en grande distribution - FranceAgriMer
www.franceagrimer.fr/.../SYN-VIN-2014 Vins tranq...
Translate this page
l'année 2012, l'offre des vins tranquilles, dont l'exposition en linéaire est en retrait cette année, évolue moins vite que celle des autres boissons alcoolisées, ...
[PDF]

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Note added at 13 days (2015-02-20 08:50:55 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Post grading: Karen, I could have sworn that you had decided - more than once - on Gallagy's "reticent", which is what would have gone into The Glossary... :(
Peer comment(s):
neutral James Peel : I'm not so sure - in all of your examples, this is indeed the meaning - but the core meaning of "en retrait" is that of something going backwards. In this context, it has just described the quality of the reds and goes on to the quality of the Sauternes
6 mins
See Collins for other valid senses of "en retrait", including the one included in the original posting. I agree the syntax looks odd, but in my experience of literally hundreds of similar texts, this isn't at all unusual!
neutral Georgie Scott : This is how I read it first time, but with Charles' context I think James' answer is more accurate. I agree, "en retrait" would normally be about yield, but mention of yield here seems inconsistent to me.
1 hr
Thanks anyway! In fact, I'm now pretty much convinced that my very first instinct (before changing my mind several times and posting this) of "reticent" is the way to go.
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Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

en retrait

This expression is used in more than one sense in relation to wine. It can refer to yield, as Carol's references show. It can also refer, in other contexts, to an aspect of the flavour that is not in the forefront:

"Il dévoile une fraîche minéralité, légèrement en retrait par rapport aux arômes plus concentrés de fruits jaunes"
http://www.vins-guadeloupe.com/les-bourgognes-blanc

But I don't think either of these meanings is involved here. The context is a comparison of the quality of 1900 wines with 1899, "l'année précédente", and I believe that the sense of "en retrait" is the one indicated by James: that the dry whites are slightly down (in quality) on the previous year; "excellents quoique légèrement en retrait" indicates that "en retrait" qualifies "excellents": it refers to quality.

The context in which this statement is made tends to confirm this, I think. This may well be the very text Karen is translating, so I will not quote the source, though anyone who wants to can find it by Googling.

"Description du millésime 1900
L'année du nouveau siècle dans tous les sens du terme ! Très comparables au 1899, leur richessse, leur souplesse et leur velouté leur ont donné une supériorité tardive sur l'année précédente. Les blancs secs sont excellents quoique légèrement en retrait. Une très grande année pour les Sauternes avec des vins d'une grande élégance."

This comment comes just below the ratings for 1900, which are as follows:
"Notation du millésime 1900 - France, Bordeaux, Blanc liquoreux 19/20
Notation du millésime 1900 - France, Bordeaux, Rouge 19/20
Notation du millésime 1900 - France, Bordeaux, Blanc sec 16/20"

Here are the ratings for 1899:
"Blanc liquoreux 17/20
Blanc sec 17/20
Rouge 17/20"

And for 1898:
"Blanc liquoreux 14/20
Blanc sec 14/20
Rouge 14/20"

And for 1897 (don't buy these!):
"Blanc liquoreux 8/20
Blanc sec 8/20
Rouge 8/20"

And for 1896:
"Blanc liquoreux 17/20
Blanc sec 17/20
Rouge 17/20"

So "en retrait" means that at 16/20 the dry whites are very good but not quite as good as 1899, when they were rated 17/20. On the other hand, the sweet whites and reds, which were also very good in 1899 at 17/20, are exceptional in 1900 at 19/20.

The figures also show that the comparison is only with 1899, the previous year, not with previous years.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree James Peel : Fantastic research, Charles!
14 mins
Thanks, James!
neutral Carol Gullidge : Good research, although I'm still out on my verdict regarding the interpretation! My first instinct was indeed that the question was about quality and not quantity, until I checked in Collins, which comes down firmly on the side of production.
43 mins
Well, the answer seems to be that it often does refer to production but doesn't have to, and I really don't think it does here.
agree Georgie Scott : Context changes everything!
1 hr
Absolutely! Thanks :)
agree acetran
9 days
Thanks, acetran :)
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