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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

gourmandise

English translation:

generous on the palate

    The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2015-02-08 15:54:09 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
Feb 5, 2015 09:15
9 yrs ago
26 viewers *
French term

gourmandise

French to English Other Wine / Oenology / Viticulture
"un vin surprenant par sa fraîcheur et sa gourmandise avec une finale citronnée longue et précise"

I can find a solution to this, but I wondered if anyone who often specializes in wine might have a good suggestion for gourmandise.

I'm trying to inspire myself with the following words, though I wouldn't necessarily use any of them directly as a translation: indulgent nature, expressiveness, fullness (!), sweetness, gourmandise (?), luxury, exuberance, specialty, exquisiteness.....

I do think it's a PRO question because there are general rules for talking about wine, but I'm open to making it a Non-PRO question.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 generous on the palate
4 rich palate
3 change it around
References
generous (or perhaps voluptuous)
moreishness

Discussion

Georgie Scott (asker) Feb 5, 2015:
:) When I thought I'd closed the question and chosen an answer I did include a thank you. I do really appreciate everyone's input. So thank you everyone and thank you Carol and Charles, whose answers I based my final translation on. The reason for closing the question was because I've already submitted the translation. I don't often use Kudoz, so it was really helpful to hear everyone's input on this one. I know the client will appreciate your help too. Talking about wine is different from talking about whisky as, as Carol pointed out, the terms used have a much more precise meaning. With whisky you can really dig into the furthest depths of your imagination.
Georgie Scott (asker) Feb 5, 2015:
I'm probably going to go with a reworked version of the sentence using generous. I'm trying to stay away from using "rich" or referencing the "body" or "palate" as this sentence refers to the wine's character overall. Thank you all very much for your input. Much appreciated.
Carol Gullidge Feb 5, 2015:
"body" does sound feasible. although in my experience, "gras", "amplitude" and "ampleur" are usually used for "body". But it's good to have another bilingual source - if only I could get on to it!

Unfortunately, we have fewer wine adjectives in English than the French, (and they don't use Jilly Goulden's famous "smelly socks"!) which means that we inevitably have to double up on occasion. This can be quite awkward in translation when they use two adjectives - which they obviously see as having different shades of meaning - when we only have the one equivalent word!
kashew Feb 5, 2015:
Here it's "body"! La tenue des couleurs est splendide et les vins montrent un bel équilibre et une gourmandise certaine. winemega.com
The colours are magnificent and the wines are showing great balance and body. winemega.com
Carol Gullidge Feb 5, 2015:
@ Nathan (again!) You may possibly get away with that, but it seems that - however elegant it may sound - you're then merely rewriting (re-marketing?) the wine label in vague terms, and not actually translating the term in question
Carol Gullidge Feb 5, 2015:
@ Nathan I don't know if it's still available online, but the yearly vintage reports of the Négociants de Bordeaux do specifically use "gourmand" in their bilingual descriptions (which they translate universally as "generous"). This used to be my bible when in doubt, but now I resort to Lexivin/Lexiiwine - a useful lexicon, which, sadly, doesn't list Gourmand or any of its derivatives. What I'd give to find a link to "Négociants" in its old bilingual format again! Reliable bilingual wine sites are so hard to come by!
Ana Vozone Feb 5, 2015:
Yes, Carol, you are right I totally agree with you.
Carol Gullidge Feb 5, 2015:
Ana, the problem is that there are thousands of adjectives that can be applied to wine (well-rounded, sweet, rich, balanced, mouth-filling, smooth, etc, etc, etc, but what is needed here is a specific translation for "gourmandise" - which is comparatively rare and doesn't fit the usual descriptors. Nor is it merely being used to replace "riche", etc As I already mentioned, wine translation is not a matter of finding any old word that could possibly be made to look right but actually doesn't mean anything in the context. I know this, from my experience of translating thousands of wine and vintage reports. Despite appearances, the client definitely wants a translation and not a collection of possibly-appropriate-sounding words gathered from Google and cobbled together to look as fanciful as the ST may at first appear! Wine translation really is quite technical!
Mark Nathan Feb 5, 2015:
Precision I would agree with Carol and Charles that "gourmand" can have a quite specific meaning of generous or voluptuous. However, in my experience "gourmandise" is not a word that is much used in professional tasting notes. It is more the sort of word that is used on back labels etc. to enthuse about a wine. So expressions like "delightful", "a real treat" etc. seem quite appropriate to me.

Proposed translations

+4
1 hr
Selected

generous on the palate

Or possibly "mouth filling". In any case, you'll probably need to reconstruct the sentence to incorporate this in a readable fashion...

I know translation this sounds odd, but one of my best sources used to be the bi-lingual site of the Négociants de Bordeaux, and they always translated "un vin gourmand" as "a generous wine".

A word of warning regarding wine translations! However fanciful they might appear, the apparently weird and wonderful adjectives do all have a specific meaning to wine lovers, so you need to avoid the temptation to simply go for something that sounds equally fanciful (or inspiring?) in English but which in the end might not mean the same as the source text. In other words, accuracy is paramount. It's no good playing around with "inspirations"!

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Note added at 1 hr (2015-02-05 10:56:53 GMT)
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it seems that "generosity on the palate" does exist, which means you wouldn't necessarily have to reconstruct the sentence

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Note added at 1 hr (2015-02-05 10:58:46 GMT)
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OR simply "generous palate"!

(silly me!)

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Note added at 5 hrs (2015-02-05 15:02:41 GMT)
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To ASKER: Yes, you can safely omit the "palate" bit!
The Négociants simply used "a generous wine" for "un vin gourmand".
Note from asker:
I do like generous. It's the first word that came into my head but then I hesitated as generous is the opposite of greedy and gluttonous. In any case this refers to the wine as a whole and not simply the palate.
Peer comment(s):
agree Charles Davis : I had just drafted a rather eloquently argued answer suggesting exactly the same word, with voluptuous as runner-up. I'm going to indulge myself by posting it as a reference.
38 mins
thanks Charles :) I don't doubt that it would have been highly eloquent :))
agree philgoddard
2 hrs
thanks Phil!
agree Sonia Geerlings
4 hrs
thanks Sonia! And, as the Asker points out, the palate part can/should be omitted
agree Yvonne Gallagher
15 hrs
thanks Gallagy!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Carol. I went more or less with "generous" and left out "palate" because it is noticeably not included in this sentence. As is the general rule, notes on the palate are included later. The "inspirations" were just to show what was in my head and th"
37 mins

change it around

Gourmandise is usually something that is delightful, or a treat, so you could change it around: "a delightful wine with surprising freshness..."
Note from asker:
Hi Mark, thank you, I was rather hoping you might answer. In any case, the sentence is going to have to be reworked and I wondered what someone like you might think about losing a very "direct" translation of "gourmandise".
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : true, but in wine talk, it seems to have rather a different meaning
1 hr
Something went wrong...
1 hr

rich palate

Note from asker:
Thank you Ana. I know in a lot of ways it does mean rich but I tried to stay away from that word as wine producers never hesitate to use "riche" when that's what they mean (althought there is a nuance). Here they'd chosen to use gourmandise to describe the collection as a whole and riche to describe the palate of one of the wines in the collection later.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : the google hits do indeed show that the term exists, but not that it is the correct translation in this instance. For "rich", the trusty Lexivin gives "riche, riche en flaveurs" and "avoir de l'étoffe"
48 mins
Its rich palate and dense tannins give it a long pleasant finish.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

generous (or perhaps voluptuous)

I agree with Carol. Here's what I was going to say when I found she'd pipped me to the post:

We have to try to get a handle on what people mean when they describe a wine as "gourmand". One way is to work from the connotations of the word itself; the other is to look at how it's used in wine descriptions.

I think the key points are that gourmandise is primarily associated with sensual gratification. Of course it is a deadly sin, in its older sense, but the negativity of gluttony has given way to the idea of a positive, cheerful, exuberant, frank indulgence in sensory pleasure.

If you go to the dictionary, you find that figuratively it can mean: "Qui manifeste, qui annonce un tempérament voluptueux". There's a process of transference whereby a vin gourmand is a wine that arouses gourmandise and appeals to people who are gourmands.

As used in wine descriptions it's clearly not at the subtle and sophisticated end of things. It doesn't mean that it's crude, but that there's has an expansive openness about the flavour. The opposite of austere. It's very often couple with "frais".

Well, "exuberant" is one way to go, and "fresh" goes with "exuberant" almost to the point of cliché. But on balance I would veer more towards generous or even voluptuous, though I'd come down on the side of generous. I wouldn't rule out "sumptuous".

I had reached this point in my thinking when it occurred to me to check the glossary, and I find that "rich nose" was chosen for "nez gourmand", but the asker (Carol herself!) added that a bilingual source gave "generous".
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/wine_oenology_vi...

Much better to do it with an adjective than a noun in English. Either just "surprising fresh and generous", or refer to its fresh, generous palate/nose or whatever.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2015-02-05 11:35:28 GMT)
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Pardon me: surprisingLY fresh and generous" in the last paragraph.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2015-02-05 11:45:14 GMT)
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I think a key point is that it isn't a particular taste, though it's often associated with luscious fruitiness, but rather a description of character.
Note from asker:
Thank you Charles
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Carol Gullidge : I agree it isn't a particular flavour, aroma or note, but more of a "sensation", a "feel". Although it could also be a goodly combination of these tasting elements...
49 mins
Thanks, Carol :)
agree philgoddard
1 hr
Thanks, Phil :)
Something went wrong...
6 hrs
Reference:

moreishness

Not a word I like, but this is what the sentence (in my innocence) conveys to me.

and is certainly quite delicious, another adjective that initially seems to be meaningless, but actually encapsulates the sensuous immediacy of pure drinkability and gratifying moreishness.
http://www.lescaves.co.uk/wine_rack/ferment_article/torrette...

Overall, the wine achieves a balance, moreishness and complexity often unseen in Côtes du Rhône wines.
http://cesoirwine.com/product/wine/grenache-syrah-carignan

There's a touch of sweetness, but also a real freshness and moreishness to this- it slips down all too easily
http://definefoodandwine.com/content/il-passo-vigneti-zabu

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Note added at 6 hrs (2015-02-05 15:37:15 GMT)
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Another example linking freshness and moreishness:

... sauvignon blanc’s delicious easy-going combination of citrus fruit, zesty acidity and refreshing moreishness has made it the ‘grape du jour’ ...

http://www.thewinesociety.com/shop/searchlist.aspx?section=s...
Note from asker:
Thank you Wendy, this could work in other circumstances but I hadn't mentioned that this is a description for an extremely expensive vintage champagne, so it wouldn't quite fit this time.
Something went wrong...
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