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Managed to spread it.
mid-teen ROE
Nov 12, 2014 10:34
9 yrs ago
2 viewers *
English term

dandyhorse (dandydrome?)

English Other Sports / Fitness / Recreation
HI,
What does "dandy" mean in " Dandy horse' in English?
Responses
4 dandy: a fashionable, well-dressed young gentleman
4 +1 like a bicycle
Change log

Nov 12, 2014 10:55: Charles Davis changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Yvonne Gallagher, Catharine Cellier-Smart, Charles Davis

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Discussion

DLyons Nov 14, 2014:
Is "bicycle" important in the ST? If not, then "clothes horse" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothes_horse referring to both a person and thing is an alternative. Wiki doesn't have a Chinese article, but there are Japanese and Korean ones.
sunny20101211 (asker) Nov 13, 2014:
Thanks very much for answering my question. Maybe I can coin a Chinese term just as Charles indicates by saying "horse for fashionable people' or maybe coin a term which indicates" bicycle for the fashionable'.
B D Finch Nov 13, 2014:
@Han I agree with Charles' comments and explanations. However, I would add that this is almost untranslatable, as the source text relies upon the sound of the word "dandy" as much as any reference to its meaning, because it is a word that is little used in modern English. People rarely, if ever think about the etymology of e.g. dandelion ("dents de lion" = lion's teeth) when talking about the plants. However in your text:
"It was also called the"dandyhorse", which had it stuck as a name, would surely have put off our entire current drop of cyclists, whether dandyhorsing in a peloton, riding a moutain dandyhorse, or competing in the dandydrome," the reference to "horse" is also important. The point being made is that had bicycles been called dandyhorses, the name would have sounded sufficiently ridiculous to have put people off cycling as a sport.
Charles Davis Nov 13, 2014:
The passage could be translated into a language which already has a term for a dandyhorse, such as "Laufmaschine" in German or "draisienne" in French; you could invent a verb "draisienner" or a noun "draisiennodrome", for example. But if Chinese doesn't already have a name for this machine (as I presume it doesn't), you can't achieve the same effect in that language. So actually, one thing you might do is to invent a term for the machine in Chinese and then use it in a similar way to the way this author is using "dandyhorse" instead of "bicycle". I have no idea how that might work in practice. But one option would be to coin a Chinese term that literally translates "dandyhorse", and to do that, it is actually useful to know what "dandy" and "horse" actually mean. The Chinese term would have to mean "horse for fashionable people". So maybe the original question wasn't beside the point after all.
Charles Davis Nov 13, 2014:
However, after a short while it occurred to me the the term you posted in the headword also included "dandydrome?", and although you didn't explicitly ask about that word in your question, I thought you must be interested to know what it means, so I explained it, in a note at 34 minutes (11:09), since at that time it had not yet been mentioned. In doing so, I also cited what turned out to be your context (in Google Books), though I didn't know that at the time. I suppose I should have realised that you wanted to translate that very passage.

What you actually wanted was to work out how to translate the passage into Chinese, and for that purpose, as B D Finch says, knowing what "dandy" refers to is actually no practical help, since the effect of "dandyhorsing" or "dandydrome", which depends on imagining what it would be like if a bicycle were called a dandyhorse, is really impossible to do directly in another language. Of course, if I'd realised that at the beginning I would have tried to give you a more practically useful answer.
Charles Davis Nov 13, 2014:
No harm done I was the only other person involved in this question, which I revisited from time to time to see how it was progressing, once I realised that there was a dialogue going on. So in due course I saw the context you had posted in a note to Gallagy, and responded to it myself, in a note at 12:56, with an explanation of how "dandy" is being used in this passage (dandyhorsing, dandydrome), since as far as I could see Gallagy had not explained it, so I thought it would be useful.

As for the question itself, I started simply by answering what was asked, which was what "dandy" means in this word. It was clear to me, from the way you asked it, that you already knew what "dandyhorse" itself means, otherwise you would have said "what is a dandyhorse?". So I explained it, correctly: not a fine or excellent "horse", nor indeed a foppish or effeminate "horse", but a "horse" (actually a kind of bicycle) for dandies: smart, fashionable people. The idea that a dandy is foppish or effeminate is an anachronism: a modern view. That is not what people meant by it when the name "dandyhorse" was actually in use, so the word doesn't imply silly or impractical at all. People thought dandyhorses were great.
Yvonne Gallagher Nov 13, 2014:
@ Han
Firstly, welcome to Proz and Kudoz. It is always a good idea to give as much context as possible at the beginning as it saves everyone a lot of time. Also to let us know what research you have already done etc.
However, I thinkit's a bit strong to say you gave context "privately" as many Askers often give extra context in this way. And anyway, in this case, I had already stumbled upon the context in Wordreference and had posted a link. This context was vital as was the fact that you had already asked the question on the Wordrefence site. So, you already probably knew what a "dandy horse" is. Nevertheless, it IS preferable to use the Discussion box to post extra info, as when you do, everyone following the question gets to see the new info.
sunny20101211 (asker) Nov 12, 2014:
I am really sorry about my mistakes but I did not intent to do post the context privately(I'm new here and does not know much about the rules here). I will definitely pay attention to that next time
B D Finch Nov 12, 2014:
Additional context I see that you have given some proper context now. However, you should have posted that context here in the Discussion section rather than privately to one answerer. Particularly as, in my view, that context shows that you were asking the wrong question completely by asking for the (irrelevant to your translation) meaning of the word "dandy". Indeed it was impossible to understand the significance without all the context you have now posted in your comments to Gallagy, which makes it clear that neither of the answers suggested directly helps your translation problem.

Responses

20 mins
Selected

dandy: a fashionable, well-dressed young gentleman

The dandy horse itself is the forerunner of the bicycle, patented by the German inventor Karl Drais in January 1818. Denis Johnson patented a version in London in December the same year, formally known as a velocipede, but it quickly came to be called a "dandy horse".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandy_horse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Johnson_(inventor)

The word "dandy" had quite recently entered the language. It's derived from Andrew. It came to denote a fashionable, ostentatiously well-dressed young gentleman, and was a word very much in vogue in those years:

"The word was in vogue in London c.1813-1819."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dandy

By 1828 Noah Webster included it in his dictionary in the United States, with a very disapproving definition:

"DAN'DY, n. In modern usage, a male of the human species, who dresses himself like a doll and who carries his character on his back."
http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/dandy

Although I have not found authoritative evidence, the following source suggests an explanation for the name:

"The Laufmaschine proved to be a sensation. Well, among young gentry who missed being able to ride their horses, anyway. Germans preferred to call it a “Draisine”, after Count Drais. News of it spread westward across Europe, and it was most enthusiastically adopted in Britain within a certain circle of young aristocratic men known as “dandies”. "
http://dandycycle.blogspot.com.es/2010/10/the-dandy-horse-or...

This article explains that the shortage of horses was due to crop failures following the eruption of Mount Tambora in 1815.

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Note added at 22 mins (2014-11-12 10:57:22 GMT)
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So the very first bicycles (or pre-bicycles) were apparently fashionable in London; dandies rode them.

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Note added at 34 mins (2014-11-12 11:09:21 GMT)
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"Dandydrome" is a word I have only found in this passage on the dandy horse:

"riding a mountain dandyhorse, or competing in the dandydrome".
http://books.google.es/books?id=nYkNQO2GdaMC&pg=PT149&lpg=PT...

It must mean a race track for dandy horses:
"-drome
Used to form words whose original means related to a course, such as a racecourse."
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-drome

An arena for cycle races is called a velodrome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velodrome


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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-11-12 12:51:10 GMT)
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When the dandyhorse (or dandy horse) was in use, the word "dandy" was not yet in use as an adjective meaning fine or elegant. It was only used as a noun meaning a fop, a fashionable, well-dressed man. So "dandy" here definitely doesn't mean "fine" or "elegant".

A "dandy horse" is literally a "horse" (actually of course a substitute for a horse) ridden by and popular with dandies: fashionable, well-dressed young gentlemen.

If you want to translate it into Chinese, you need to find something that means "early/primitive bicycle" or "bicycle without pedals or brakes": something that describes the actual machine.

If you want to give a literal translation of the English term, you need something that means "two-wheeled riding machine for fashionable young men".

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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-11-12 12:53:17 GMT)
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I think you will find it helpful, in choosing a Chinese translation for this, to look at the pictures in the references I've posted.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-11-12 12:56:42 GMT)
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As for your source, "dandyhorsing in a peloton, riding a mountain dandyhorse, or competing in the dandydrome", the writer is imagining what would have happened if the bicycle had continued to be called a "dandyhorse"; he is humorously suggesting that the name would not have been attractive. He takes the expressions "cycling in a peloton, riding a mountain bike, or competing in the velodrome" and substitutes "dandy" or "dandyhorse" for the modern terms, in order to show how strange it would sound.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-11-12 12:59:25 GMT)
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"Dandy" as an adjective meaning fine, excellent, is originally an American usage. The first example in British English, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is "Wouldn't that be dandy?" from 1894. See the wordreference thread cited by Gallagy.
Peer comment(s):
agree B D Finch : Dandy horses were probably too impractical and expensive to be used by anyone other than dandies. They were probably rather heavy to push uphill and dangerous downhill.
3 hrs
That's probably true; also doubtless attractive to the fashionable man-about-town as the "dernier cri" in about 1819. Thank goodness someone invented pedals and brakes.
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : I'm sorry but your headterm does not explain the headterm of question asked. How does dandy horse= a... young man?//Sorry, but I've had and seen disagrees for far less...and I'd already given definitions for "dandy horse" and "dandy" (as adj. not noun)
4 hrs
The question asked was "What does 'dandy' mean in 'dandy horse' in English?" Anyway, I explained what a dandy horse is. // Well I think it's out of order. And when I posted, you'd put a ref to wiki and the "fine and dandy" meaning, which is not relevant.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks for your professional answer."
+1
8 mins

like a bicycle

2 wheeled

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Note added at 9 mins (2014-11-12 10:44:16 GMT)
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see here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandy_horse

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Note added at 12 mins (2014-11-12 10:47:04 GMT)
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Dandy=good/excellent or elegant etc

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dandy

expression "it's all very fine and dandy" ="it's all very well and good (but)..."

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Note added at 14 mins (2014-11-12 10:48:49 GMT)
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and by the way, while I knew what "dandy" means, I'd never heard of a "dandyhorse" before so am voting this "Pro"

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Note added at 49 mins (2014-11-12 11:24:04 GMT)
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Hi Hans

The "dandyhorse" is the name of this "bicycle"contraption so I think you just keep it like that (you don't translate names).

As I said, if you really needto ecxplain "dandy" then in this context I'd use a synonym /trnaslation for excellent and elegant. As Charles has just posted, "dandy" also means a foppish or fashionable young man" (which is in the dictionary entry I already gave you (whih you don't seem to have looked at.Obviously not all meanings of the word can be used in this context. But meaning 2 "very good" "fine" is what you need . Foppish would make no sense here

dan·dy (dnd)
n. pl. dan·dies
1. A man who affects extreme elegance in clothes and manners; a fop.
2. Something very good or agreeable.
3. Nautical See yawl.
adj. dan·di·er, dan·di·est
1. Suggestive of or attired like a dandy; foppish.
2. Fine; good.

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Note added at 51 mins (2014-11-12 11:26:11 GMT)
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BY THE WAY I gave the meaning in my head term for your headterm: dandyhorse



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Note added at 53 mins (2014-11-12 11:27:53 GMT)
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OOPs, a few typos above, sorry. (explain/translation/which)

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Note added at 55 mins (2014-11-12 11:29:56 GMT)
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and 'dandydrome' (a separate 2nd term) would be the arena/stadium where these bicycles are ridden.

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Note added at 1 hr (2014-11-12 11:46:31 GMT)
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Hi again Hans

Which language are you translating into? Do the German or French terms help you with this?

Laufmaschine (Drais' own terminology, German for "running machine"), velocipede, or draisine , and in its French form draisienne.


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Note added at 1 hr (2014-11-12 12:00:28 GMT)
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Well I think you should use one of the names either in '' '' and explain it in
(... ) Dandy horse OR Laufmaschine Or velocipede, or draisine , and in its French form draisienne

or use 'velocipede' translated with one of these names in quotes ' ' or use 'excellent' (best adjective here I think, or use 'elegant, excellent' in front of 'bicycle' or 'velocipede'

Sorry, I can't help you with the Chinese but one of these methods should work

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Note added at 1 hr (2014-11-12 12:02:54 GMT)
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use the word 'velocipede' translated then with an explanation if you can

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocipede



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Note added at 1 hr (2014-11-12 12:14:51 GMT)
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'dandyhorse is used as a verb like dandyhorse in a peloton'

are you sure it's a verb? Is verb not used as RIDING a dandyhorse??

a 'peloton' is just a bunch of bikes all grouped together (particularly in a race)

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Note added at 1 hr (2014-11-12 12:17:01 GMT)
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http://translation.babylon.com/english/to-chinese (t)/Dandy ...
上等的馬

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Note added at 1 hr (2014-11-12 12:28:57 GMT)
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dandyhosring=a noun used to make a verb = RIDING a dandy horse

I'd just found this context in Wordref. A pity you didn't include that link so I didn't need to repeat stuff here.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2924992

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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-11-12 12:40:50 GMT)
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so maybe after all that where fear is a factor (no brakes) the adjective for 'dandy' might be better as 'foppish' after all! i.e not very efficient, all for show or appearence, a bit silly or foolish like a dandified young man who is overly or excessively concerned about what he looks like...


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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-11-12 12:45:30 GMT)
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fashionable, natty and effeminate (and a bit silly)= foppish.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-11-12 13:26:41 GMT)
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so after all that I think 'foppish/effeminate' might work best for 'dandy' .

The writer in the piece you quote is basically saying that perhaps people would not have become interested in velocipeded and bicycles if the name of dandy horse had stuck (been retained) as peoplwe might have seen them as effiminate and a bit silly and all for show rather than something useful...

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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-11-12 13:29:55 GMT)
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(sorry, for delay, internet connection giving me problems today, coming and going)...argh more typos velocipedeS, people effEminate

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Note added at 16 hrs (2014-11-13 03:22:56 GMT)
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I see you have also asked this as an En > Chinese question. I hope you have got some good help there.
Concentrate on "dandy horse" as "dandyhorsed" is not a real verb (the writer is joking here) so should be translated simply as RIDING the dandy horse. And you have a good explanation in this piece already as

"a sit-on children's scooter: a frame with two wheels and a saddle,..."

OR You could also explain it as

"like an adult version of a balance bike" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_bicycle

Which brings us back to dandy (adj) and horse (n) as separate words. I gave you the dictionary link at beginning (12 mins) and suggested "good/excellent elegant etc." HOWEVER, as this latest context emerged it's become clear the apparatus is not really good at all but merely a trendy or faddish thing like the latest smartphone would be today. The "horse/velocipede/2 wheeler" is not really very useful in terms of fast transport and takes a lot of effort. And the writer is also suggesting that the name really wasn't very good... This form of the word "dandy" is foppish/effeminate, a bit silly as it's not very useful and is just for appearence or showing off, so any words to convey that sort of meaning is what you need. You will probably have to give a few as an explanation and reword the whole sentence/paragraph. You also might work in something like "trendy" or "the very latest fad"... And good luck!

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Note added at 1 day7 hrs (2014-11-13 17:55:28 GMT)
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Hi Han
I really don't believe that translating this as a "horse for fashionable people" is getting the meaning across at all. It is most definitely NOT a "horse" and the nearest it is to a "bicycle" is "velocipede" or (like an) "adult balance bike".
OR the translation of the German name as "running machine"

So 'horse'=type of running machine to replace the horse as means of transport

As I said above, you already have an explanation in the passage (a sit-on children's scooter...) so that should help with coining a term. Or, as I said much earlier, keep the name, either German, French or English, and just explain what it is and period it came from as pre-cursor to bicycle.

I'm curious to know what the Chinese answerer suggested?

the dandy and fop are indeed considered foolish, effeminate (in style of dress, lots of frills etc) and OVERLY concerned with appearance as can be seen from any dictionary. Baudelaire said: "These beings (dandies) have no other status, but that of cultivating the idea of beauty in their own persons....The dandy must aspire to be sublime without interruption; he must live and sleep before a mirror."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fop
"Fop became a pejorative term for a foolish man overly concerned with his appearance and clothes in 17th century England. Some of the very many similar alternative terms are: "coxcomb",[1] fribble, "popinjay" (meaning "parrot"), fashion-monger, and "ninny". "Macaroni" was another term, of the 18th century, more specifically concerned with fashion....
....the word "fop" is first recorded in 1440, and for several centuries just meant a fool of any kind; the OED notes first use with the meaning of "one who is foolishly attentive to and vain of his appearance, dress, or manners; a dandy, an exquisite" in 1672....


I'm curious to know what the Chinese answerer suggested?
Note from asker:
Hi Gallagy ! Thanks for your answer. I have referred to the information that you gave to me. Another thing that confuses me is that what does "dandy " mean in Dandy horse? An excellent horse? An excellent bicycle? or it is just a word which is randomly put in front
hi Gallagy! But in the following context, dandyhorse is used as a verb like dandyhorse in a peloton. So translating it seems difficult
Hi Gallagy , I want to translate it into Chinese, so I need an exact word .
HI, maybe I can translate it into running machine
hi, I will give the whole text.In Mannheim, in1818, an inventor called Karl produced what was essentially a sit-on children's scooter: a frame with two wheels and a saddle, which you had to walk along the street while you were sitting on it. It was terrible going up hills , because of the effort required, and terrifying going down hills, because it had no brakes. It was also called the"dandyhorse", which had it stuck as a name, would surely have put off our entire current drop of cyclists, whether dandyhorsing in a peloton, riding a moutain dandyhorse, or competing in the dandydrome.
Hi, no problem , thanks very much for your answer
Peer comment(s):
agree Didier Fourcot : I confirm "draisienne" for French, but these dandies were in 18th century
1 hr
Merci bien. Thanks for confirmation. Problem is getting the Chinese!
neutral B D Finch : Sorry, that agree was meant for Charles. A dandy horse could hardly compete for elegance with a real horse, so I think it refers to the dandies who rode them. A less useful equivalent of being seen to have the latest smartphone.
3 hrs
Well yes, but the question became more about "dandyhorsing" much later. I actually answered the headterm AS ASKED with my headterm
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