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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

carré d\'as

English translation:

crème de la crème

Added to glossary by Victoria Britten
Jun 12, 2014 09:58
9 yrs ago
4 viewers *
French term

carré d'as

French to English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters context: orchestral musicians (seating)
This one is a bit of a long shot. It's a trainee conductor, saying that as he's conducting he loses his idea of which musicians are where, and "Je sais que c'est le carré d'as". This doesn't appear to be a standard term, because his instructor repeats it with some surprise, but is clearly one that is used by others as well, at least amongst this (Paris central) Conservatoire's students.

I would like to be able to use an appropriately similar image in English, but sense that "four aces" is very unlikely to be appropriate! However, never having played in an orchestra I can't begin to imagine what this expression might be picking up on. All creative help gratefully accepted.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 crème de la crème
Change log

Jun 12, 2014 11:13: writeaway changed "Field (write-in)" from "orchestral musicians" to "orchestral musicians (seating)"

Jun 16, 2014 08:10: writeaway changed "Field" from "Art/Literary" to "Other" , "Field (specific)" from "Music" to "General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters" , "Field (write-in)" from "orchestral musicians (seating)" to "context: orchestral musicians (seating)"

Discussion

Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 13, 2014:
Okay, I own up! In fact, my only reason for posting this was an attempt to win the year's free ProZ subscription awarded to the question with the most discussion entries... Only joking.
It's been quite a challenging experience: for example, I confess I fail to see what difference the instructor's exact words make; being chided for thinking too much when I'm being bombarded by multiple interpretations from all sides isn't particularly comfortable; and the apparent underlying assumption of several contributors that if only they saw the video themselves they'd "get it right" immediately didn't make me feel the warm glow of solidarity that KudoZian adventures sometimes generate.
The job has now been handed in - with blanks, for the first time in an admittedly not hugely long career - but I feel kind of duty-bound to carry on following the discussion, so I'd be very grateful if it could stop here and we could just agree to disagree.
With many thanks for your enthusiastic help!
patrickfor Jun 13, 2014:
@Charlie... Sorry but my explanation has to be in french now
Instructeur '"Tes mains, c'est de plus en plus haut, là !"
il fait remarquer au chef que ses mains sont de plus en plus hautes. C'est de toute évidence la marque d'une incompréhension (mais pourquoi monte t'il ses mains dans une position inhabituelle pour l'instructeur ?).
Et naturellement il faut qu'il explique.. Il commence par "parce que du coup" je ne sais plus ou sont les musiciens"
1) Peut-être justement parce qu'il a commencé a (trop) lever ses mains il ne voit pas ce qu'il veut voir et DU COUP il continue a lever encore plus pour dégager son champ de vision

2) s'il y a un silence entre "parce que" et "du coup" le sens peut-être totalement différent....
ex:
"parce que.... Du coup tu m'enerves, je ne repondrai pas à ta question"
Du coup (- parce que tu me poses cette question/tu me fais cette remarque) je n'ai plus envie de te répondre.
"du coup" can express many things, Not easy to explain this in english only!
Charlie Bavington Jun 13, 2014:
Pouquoi.... I take your point the comment could be interpreted as a question. But then the whole answer seems unusual:
- Why are your hands getting higher and higher?
- Because then [i.e. as a result, not temporal] I no longer know where the musicians are and I... I know (that) *mystery phrase but some kind of point about excellence*

To explain that his hands are getting higher because that then means he doesn't know where the players are seems... well, odd.
That said, my underlying assumption is that not knowing where the musicians are is sub-optimal. If it is somehow a good thing, then what he says makes more sense.

Either way, I agree (naturally!) 100% that having "Tes mains, c'est de plus en plus haut, là," from the outset would have been useful. If you're trying to decode a response (and regardless of my opinion on its appropriateness, a phrase starting "parce que" is clearly meant as a response), it's handy to have the words being responded to. Ho hum. The sun's out, it's almost the weekend, the World Cup's started... I'll stop here :)
It's been an interesting discussion, at least!
Jim Tucker (X) Jun 13, 2014:
Plus haut = dièse ...
patrickfor Jun 12, 2014:
@Victoria: I'm not arguing (what for?) here just making a point. An exemple? Took 40 discussions entries before we could read "Tes mains, c'est de plus en plus haut, là" and we could have had this info from the beginning.

@Charlie: I don't agree with you 'parce que" il not out of place at all.
He is answering to what in fact is a question he is asked (about why he is raising his hands more and more.
- Pourquoi tes mains sont de plus en plus hautes ?
- Parce que ....
Charlie Bavington Jun 12, 2014:
Face value Fair enough, although starting with "parce que" still seems out of place, but from "du coup..." onwards it all makes sense. A verbal tic, perhaps, or a certain lack of eloquence - understandable & forgiveable.
You'll have to forgive my query - 10 years in IT support taught me never to take anything for granted when people are asking for help, and various questions over the years on here only reinforce that view, I'm afraid.
At this point I'm inclined to share the view that the expression should probably be taken at face value, a non-musical reference to something being superlative. The balance of probabilities is, I suppose, it means the orchestra, although again, it seems a bit odd the instructor would query it. If it is the (standard of) the players he's referring to, perhaps "they're all ace(s)" would work?
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@Patrick I almost always post in English, because it's my native language - though some franglais may certainly slip in from time to time - and to my mind there's nothing incongruous about this kind of discussion being carried on in either or both of the two languages under discussion.
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@Charlie Whether or not it is an appropriate response is kind of beside the point, since it's what the guy says, verbatim, as I've given it to you. The instructor says "Tes mains, c'est de plus en plus haut, là," and while I agree that that too is potentially open to interpretation, the conductor's response is illustrated by a pantomime of him conducting with his hands held comically high - even higher than they were when he was interrupted. As I've already said more than once, if not perhaps quite so explicitly: strangely, I assumed colleagues would take what I gave them at face value. I'm afraid I simply can't give you more than that.
patrickfor Jun 12, 2014:
If I may....One very amazing thing here is that all sorts of things are discussed in english and only in english as if this language was transparent... No matter if the translation is en-> fr or fr -> en.
When I discuss with my english friends we "jump" from one language to the other in order to ensure we have a proper undestanding of what is said, what is the meaning behind some "strange" wording... Not common practice here.
Charlie Bavington Jun 12, 2014:
Context I wasn't necessarily having a pop, it's the nature of these questions that more & more context is added as the discussion progresses. And when I say context, I don't just mean the words before and after the problem phrase. I mean all the background info that emerges.
That said, we only have your translation of the instructor's comment to which the problem phrase is, ultimately, the response. I for one am still wondering quite why "parce que, du coup, je ne sais plus..." is an entirely appropriate response to the observation he holds his hands high. I hesitate to suggest this, but there are couple of idioms involving the words "haut(e)" and "main", so would it be possible to see what the conductor actually says, in French? Just on the slight chance it's not actually about having "high" "hands" at all? :)
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@Nikki With all due respect, it's others (including you) who have been thinking up all sorts of angles I would never have got to on my own! This documentary follows a beginners' conducting class at a Conservatoire, so I think it highly unlikely this one student will be taking part in a prestigious festival, or indeed that he would be seen preparing for it in a "classroom" setting. I actually think - as I've said more than once - that your answer is on the right track, and would have actually closed the question a while back... but the comments, they keep a-comin'!
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jun 12, 2014:
Wow. Just been out to push the caddie round Super U and 34 comments! Might I suggest you ask the client if this is a direct reference to the Carré d'As (where they may have been prize-winners? where it may be something they are working for?), or it may be tongue in cheek.
I reckon you have got all you will out of a multiple contribution post ona site like this and that without more info, the question will not be resolved.
You cannot rely on guesswork, but the absence of capital letters suggsts not a direct reference. But now we have this info, it is relevant and the matter needs to be cleared up. You can only do that by aksing your client.
(Back to catch up on time spent thinking which spuds to buy).
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@Charlie As I said, I have given you the content of the entire extract! And the fact that it's guesswork is exactly my problem - I have long since resigned myself to the realisation that the best I'm going to produce is a (very, collaboratively) educated guess. And all contributions help. That having been said, I do think Nikki is on the right lines and that he's saying something like "I know these are great musicians, but I'm also aware I'm not being specific enough in my gestures".
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@David Absolutely: the instructor says at one point that they're not going to be going through the actual scores too much, unless there's a specific question, because they all know how to read one.
Charlie Bavington Jun 12, 2014:
What they said I agree with David that "c'est" is more likely to refer to a "thing", whether that means his hand position, or the ideal hand position, or the level of the orchestra (so his being rubbish at conducting is less of an issue?) or an event they are at or going to be at; I agree with Patrick that what precedes "parce que du coup" would no doubt help if available; and I agree with writeaway that at this point, it seems a lot of guesswork.

If that seems unhelpful, it's just meant to advise against jumping in with both feet deciding it means this not that.
David Vaughn Jun 12, 2014:
guessing And I think there is probably a lot more context in the film that Victoria may not see. For example, the quality of the musicians. Even if these are first year students in conducting, since this is apparently the Conservatoire Nat Sup de Paris, these "beginning" students probably have more than 10 years of quality music education behind them.
writeaway Jun 12, 2014:
there is too much guessing here no answer should be considered as the definitive translation imo. no way to know.....
David Vaughn Jun 12, 2014:
So are these student musicians? If they are using a "real" orchestra, then perhaps referring to the musicians as a whole as the cat's pyjamas could make sense.

Or perhaps he is saying that even though he got lost, this "great" orchestra has managed to continue playing even without his help - in that case they wouldn't need to be any good at all.

But I do find the "c'est" a little strange, which is why my first guess was and is that the 4 aces refers to a "thing" and not to people. Usage when referring to people as le carré d'ace seems to most often logically refer to 4 people. A festival is a "thing" - not people.
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@clain There is nothing at all to suggest they're practising for a festival: cf. my answer to writeaway just above this. This is a student learning new skills, right at the beginning of his training.
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@writeaway There isn't any surrounding text. These are very short clips - three or four exchanges - from conducting classes. Here we see the guy conducting, the instructor says his hand are very high, he says the quote I gave, and the instructor says try again!
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@David Yes, that's it.
Claire Nolan Jun 12, 2014:
Wouldn't it be "Vous êtes le carré d'as" if the conductor meant "you're the crème de la crème"? Instead he says "c'est le carré d'as", which confirms my belief that he means "It's the Carré d'As Festival" (that we're practicing for).
But I googled ''Vous êtes le carré d'as" and couldn't find anything for that wording.
writeaway Jun 12, 2014:
seeing the surrounding French would be/have been a great help
David Vaughn Jun 12, 2014:
musicians present? Are the musicians present in this video? Is this like a master's class with the students conducting an actual orchestra (or?)?

If they aren't, no reason to talk about the musicians being "aces".
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
Thanks all! I'm going to put all that in the pot and stir it up. I'm pretty sure Nikki's thinking is basically right; now I just have to fit it into the context (and a limited number of characters...).
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@David This is a beginner - at the beginning of the first year of two (if he gets through to the second, which only half of them will). I don't think he's lost in the music, just not used yet to using his hands with precision.
David Vaughn Jun 12, 2014:
"first rule" (of conducting) The conductor's hands (like a fighter's) have to be held uncomfortably high so that all the musicians (who sometimes block each other's view) can see them. Is the student exaggerating? It seems possible that since hand position seems to be the question, that in an oral moment of possible imprecision, the "winning hand" metaphor is used to mean "what you're supposed to do"

"The instructor points out that he's holding his hands very high, and he says "Parce que du coup je sais plus où sont les musiciens et je... [holding his hands high as though he's trying to emphasize that people need to be looking at them] ...Je sais que c'est le carré d'as, mais...". The instructor repeats the expression with some surprise, and he repeats it back, so there's no doubt that that's what being said (and indeed the script confirms it)."
David Vaughn Jun 12, 2014:
level of the students? Victoria, are these beginning conducting students, or a higher level? It would be impossible for even a slightly experienced conductor to get lost in the music, not knowing where the musicians are in the score.

[I'll just mention that I studied conducting at the U of California as part of my composition studies.]
patrickfor Jun 12, 2014:
Now if you really want to dig even more, personne n'a signalé le "parce que du coup...." that obviously could give la réponse....
Ce qui précède ce "parce que" doit forcément expliquer POURQUOI il ne sait plus où sont les musiciens :-)
David Vaughn Jun 12, 2014:
the woodwind section as "carré d'as" "Yes, you can see how that woodwind section could come to be labelled the "carré d'as"

In real life, there is no square of musicians.

It that looks like a square on the url drawing because the software puts the words straight, and there are only 4 words. In a real orchestra, there are several more people and they are usually arranged in a curve.

Also no reason to single out these players as aces, and lots of reasons to not do so.
Claire Nolan Jun 12, 2014:
Writeaway, the same thought came to my mind: not where they are physically, but in the music.
writeaway Jun 12, 2014:
where they are where? in the seating or in the score?
writeaway Jun 12, 2014:
winning hand is the standard translation. also found in lots of www discussions. not sure that's what they mean here.
Tony M Jun 12, 2014:
Perhaps... ...it's nothing so literal at all?

I was wondering if he simply meant that as he was a bit vague about the orchestral layout, he held his hands up high so that everyone could see and it would be easy to target the sections — so by doing so, he was "holding a winning hand" so to speak.

A bit far-fetched, I know, but heck, why not... we're all guessing here!
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@writeaway Am I missing something? I can't make "carré d'as" fit at all with that seating plan, which is why I'm looking (clinging desperately) to the woodwinds.
writeaway Jun 12, 2014:
imo it's referring to the seating of all sections in the pit (or on stage depending on what the gig is)
patrickfor Jun 12, 2014:
visiblement il semble y avoir un lien entre le fait qu'il lève ses mains haut pour diriger et le fait qu'il ne sait pas (ne sait plus) OU sont les musiciens. Je ne suis pas musicien mais je ne vois RIEN ici qui soit spécifique aux instruments à vent, ni a 4 musiciens en particulier. Il a un carré d'as parce que cet orchestre est excellent... AMHA

PS: Encore une fois il me semble difficile de discuter de la signification d'une conversation en français directement et uniquement en anglais. Une langue n'est pas directement "transportable".
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@writeaway Yes, you can see how that woodwind section could come to be labelled the "carré d'as" - why not? - but what on earth would that be in English?
And of course he may not even be referring to the woodwinds - maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely...
writeaway Jun 12, 2014:
for example http://www.rpo.org/s_7/s_8/p_6/Orchestra_Set-Up/
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
@1045 Yes, I've been Googling about, too. I'm still hoping against hope that a woodwind player-turned-translator will happen along, but I'm not holding my breath. Since it's said more than once, and spotlighted, I can't really get away with something approximative!
Victoria Britten (asker) Jun 12, 2014:
(A bit) more context The instructor points out that he's holding his hands very high, and he says "Parce que du coup je sais plus où sont les musiciens et je... [holding his hands high as though he's trying to emphasize that people need to be looking at them] ...Je sais que c'est le carré d'as, mais...". The instructor repeats the expression with some surprise, and he repeats it back, so there's no doubt that that's what being said (and indeed the script confirms it).
My research has taught me that in a symphony orchestra, the woodwind instruments can either be lined up or in groups, so that the sections can better hear each other, but I haven't managed to find a name for these different seating plans in either language.
Jean-Claude Gouin Jun 12, 2014:
GOOGLE ... Ici, on parle de la valeur de l'as de carreau et de l'as de carreaux en cartomancie ... Je ne vois rien d'utile ...
patrickfor Jun 12, 2014:
un carré d'as c'est la plus belle main, par extension c'est avoir la meilleure 'arme' à sa disposition. C'est l'équipe gagnante, le winning team. Je ne crois pas qu'il y ait un autre sens spécifique aux musiciens, et je ne vois pas bien le rapport avec la position des musiciens dans l'orchestre.... On pourrait avoir un peu plus de contexte ?
Jean-Claude Gouin Jun 12, 2014:
AS DE CARREAUX? Je n'ai jamais vu ni entendu 'carré d'as' ... J'ai hâte de savoir ...
David Vaughn Jun 12, 2014:
winning hand Is he just saying he knows he should know where everyone is, but shucks...
David Vaughn Jun 12, 2014:
Phrase Could you give us the student's full statement? Word play?

Proposed translations

+2
1 hr
Selected

crème de la crème

http://www.poker-regle-strategie.com/regles/carre.php

It means your hand is comprised of the four aces.

As Patrick indicates, this conductor is saying that he can trust his orchestra as they as the bee's knees, the crème de la crème.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:16:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Of course, you wouldn't say "four of a kind" in your context, but the possibilities are endless.

Here's an extract from the source I cited. Sorry, I ought to have posted this in the first part.

"carré

Le carré (four of a kind) est formé par les quatre cartes d'un même rang, accompagnées d'une carte quelconque. C'est une combinaison majeure, pratiquement imbattable. Le carré le plus fort est celui de rang le plus élevé."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:17:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The definition is pretty helpful and may be a source of inspiration for finding something more in line with the style you have adopted for your translation.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:23:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Don't overthink the "carré" format. It's just a term in poker being used to indicate that these guys are top notch. It starts and stops there for this term. I played for several years in a symphony orchestra and fail to see where the wind section comes into it. That's over-reading, overcomplicating things. Take the image at face value. The rest has got nothing to do with the price of beef in my opinion! ;-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:30:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oh dear. Victoria, no! Not that at all. I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time following your line of thought. The question you ask is the meaning of "carré d'as" in context. it may or may not be in reference to the Festival Clain has so helpfully pointed to. That Fesitval adopts the very same idea, that "carré d'as" are top notch, winner, champions!!! It is really very simple, honestly, believe me.
Nothing to do with the wind section, nothing to do with orchestra layout and everything to do with the guy, on the spur of the moment, saying that these guys are "carré d'as" (in ref to the festival or not) in other words, the best, real pros.
Cease to overthink, it really is a little bit of very, very simple imagery being used.
Note from asker:
Hmm. As in "I know they're a talented lot, but I can't seem to let them just get on with it," a bit like an inadequate teacher shouting at a classful of children?
Inadequate or - more to the point here - inexperienced?
I think actually we're not thinking on lines that are so very different. I'm pretty sure now that your basic idea is right, but I have to make it make sense in relation to the context: maybe I haven't made this clear, but his body language during this exchange suggests a degree of helplessness - he isn't just saying what a lucky boy he is to have such a fine bunch of musicians to conduct.
Peer comment(s):
agree patrickfor : yes ! Not being a native I can't be sure but that's definitely the idea I think
7 mins
It's an image, to be taken as is, ni peluche, ni moine.
agree Ashley Burricks
1 day 9 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks a lot for your involvement."
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