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amerikanischen Raum
Werkentkopplung
Jan 24, 2014 11:37
10 yrs ago
1 viewer *
German term

von Vornehmen der Vornehmste; von Rückgebern der Rückgebigste

German to English Art/Literary Idioms / Maxims / Sayings Art - Schiele
This little play on words is driving me nuts! It's from Schiele's manifesto for "new art":

Ihr Manifest ver öffentlicht Schiele 1914
noch einmal, mit nur leichten Änderungen, unter dem
Titel „Die Kunst – der Neukünstler“. Er hat mit dem
Text einen festen Standpunkt eingenommen, der ihm
in einer schwankenden Künstlerexistenz Halt bieten
kann. „Es gibt keine ‚moderne‘ Kunst“, heißt es darin.
„Es gibt nur eine Kunst; die ist immerwährend ...
Aber – es gibt ‚Neukünstler‘. Schon die Studie eines
Neukünstlers allein ist immer ein Kunstwerk; denn sie
ist ein Stück von ihm selbst, das lebt. Es gibt nur wenig,
ganz wenig Neukünstler.“ Neukünstler sind für
Schiele „Erkorene“; sie „schaffen eigentlich nur allein
für sich.“ Die „Mitmenschen fühlen ihre Erlebnisse
nach“. Für Schiele muss der Künstler der Seher unter
Blinden sein, „**von Vornehmen der Vornehmste; von
Rückgebern der Rückgebigste.** Er muß Mensch sein,
mehr als je der andere, und er muß den Tod lieben und
das Leben. Die höchste Empfindung ist Religion und
Kunst. Natur ist Zweck. Aber dort ist Gott. Und der
Künstler muß ihn empfinden, stark, am stärksten.“

I have found this Leo discussion, which is interesting but doesn't get me much further on... http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idThread=108...

Many thanks in advance for any inspiration on offer!
Proposed translations (English)
3 More noble than the nobility. More charitable than St. Martin
3 more noble-minded and able to convey than all others
3 illustrious/illustrative (wordplay)
3 from the lofty, the loftiest; from the reactors, the most reactionary
3 a nobleman's nobleman; an altruist's altruist
3 of the eminent, the pre-eminent, of those who give, the one giving the most
References
Für Schiele muss der Künstler der Seher...
A Schiele poem

Discussion

oa_xxx (X) Jan 28, 2014:
@Andrew I totally agree ;)
Rachel Ward (asker) Jan 26, 2014:
@Horst I'm probably going to end up using something along the lines of "most giving", which came from your comment - would you post it as an answer??
Lancashireman Jan 26, 2014:
proz.com comment function A more finely nuanced system:
disagree > don't really agree > agree > totally agree
oa_xxx (X) Jan 26, 2014:
Just saw Kirsten's answer after I pressed submit ;)

the nonsensical translation I found that definitely was not from a native English speaker used 'requite' for 'rückgeben' - I'm not suggesting that at all as a possibility but you can see why a non-native looking up the dictionary would've thought it could work - basically the idea of giving back 'in return', but the addition of 'love' is pretty strange to me, seems like quite an assumption without further information, I would like to see the thoughts behind that decision.
Kirsten Bodart Jan 26, 2014:
totally agree of course you wouldn't use anything really terrible, but most published ones are not terrible anyway.
oa_xxx (X) Jan 26, 2014:
I don't really agree Andrew. Sure, any translation, whether widely accepted or not, may be full of mistakes, e.g. Lowe-Porter's versions of Thomas Mann's works, so we as translators have every right to challenge any translation that is out there and offer a better one if we can, but I would definitely prefer to use an existing translation of, e.g., Goethe than attempt my own - in either case it should be noted where the translation comes from or from whom. The Leopold museum has been involved in various translations of Schiele's writing, so assuming that a lot of research was undertaken by people who have access to far more of Schiele's works than any of us could ever hope for, I definitely think their translation has a lot of weight - if I find the translation terrible and/or it seems that it was not properly researched etc. of course it's ok to offer your own - with a note to the client/end reader. It of course depends on the work, the purpose of the translation etc. too.
Kirsten Bodart Jan 26, 2014:
@Orla Or our Asker has to call the museum and see (or contact the blog poster). Of course I wouldn't be happy to use it either without source (it could also have been a perpetuated bad/clumsy translation for that matter), but I think it keeps in mind the original very much (if the 'yearn to give love in return' is based on Schiele's ideas which I am inclined to think it is).

@Andrew
In literature there is something like 'accepted translation' which is practically what has been published already (allowing exceptions for definitive ones). If there are several translations from one quote (for authors like Goethe, for example), you take one. As a reader, I find it pretty annoying if a quote is mistranslated, because it denies you the chance of finding out where it came from in the first place. That said, the published translation was probably thought about more, so I would be inclined to think that any published translations are more specific than the ones we would be suggesting here, even if they were 'legitimate'.
'Vornehm' means noble as in respected, cultivated, moral, etc.. Noble is the best option. I rather think 'rückgeben' is the problem here.
Lancashireman Jan 26, 2014:
"official translation"? Is there such a thing? Even the "original translation" if not done by Schiele or subsequently approved by him has no more validity than a suggestion posted here on proz.com. There seems to be an assumption that, because one translator rendered 'vornehm' as 'noble', all subsequent attempts must follow suit.
oa_xxx (X) Jan 26, 2014:
@Kirsten Yes, I agree - its very interesting, for example, the blog I mentioned below has photos and other snippets of info directly from the exhib - it seems quite likely to me that she also took this translation from the exhibition, Schiele's poems have been translated - but I would be afraid to use this version without a reference to the source, would suggest the client needs to get hold of a copy of the original translation, everything else is guesswork.
Kirsten Bodart Jan 25, 2014:
If it is on blogs it usually comes from somewhere, but that's the question. Because it was such a leap, I thought it was better, because 'rückgeben' means to return something that you receive (as Horst [?] has said with 'to give back'). If it is an official translation (which I'm not saying it is), the leap will have been thoroughly considered (based on Schiele's ideas). But you would have to check the source and up till now I haven't been successful. I mean, it's definitely not a shoddy translation, because it's too specific, but other than that I can't say.
oa_xxx (X) Jan 25, 2014:
@Kirsten Wow, where on earth does that one come from?! As in, I see its on lots of tumblr/blog sites but none of them provide a source. They must have got it from somewhere tho, one of the bloggers is describing their visit to the Leopold with pictures etc. - it couldnt be from the museum?! But "yearn to give love in return" seems like an incredible leap!
Kirsten Bodart Jan 25, 2014:
Another one "Of noble hearts, I am the noblest - and the most generous of those that yearn to give love in return."
I don't know what source it comes from. Anyone any ideas?
Horst Huber (X) Jan 25, 2014:
Could it be, what an unsophisticated thought, that Schiele just meant what he said, "giving back"? We hear it from all the athletes and celebrities, that they occasionally feel they need to do just that. So what would be so terribly wrong with, "of the eminent, the preeminent, of those giving back, the givingest/the one giving the most"?
Helen Shiner Jan 24, 2014:
@orla Thank you.
oa_xxx (X) Jan 24, 2014:
definitely agree with Helen re. humble - and generally :)
Helen Shiner Jan 24, 2014:
PS I don't think the second link is on the right track at all. It is not about being 'humble' (rather the opposite). It is about one's internal state being of value, sufficient value, indeed, to become the subject of one's art.
Helen Shiner Jan 24, 2014:
@Alison That's very interesting. Particularly the sense that it has been interpreted as him giving of himself, rather than conveying (what is seen/sensed), via his art. That does accord with the Expressionist worldview. That an artist's work was to 'express' his inner being and sense of spirituality/authentic standpoint via his art and that it was considered possible to do so. Other artistic movements have been constructed in opposition to this, but it was a huge theme amongst the Expressionists. I would encourage you to post this and/or for Rachel to go with something along these lines.
oa_xxx (X) Jan 24, 2014:
Well done, I was only able to find one attempt at a translation so far, which was complete nonsense! Its very irritating that amazon, google etc. don't provide a list of contents for any of the books with translations of poetry by Schiele - if there is an "official" translation it would be good to get hold of it.
Alison MacG Jan 24, 2014:
Another finding which may inspire someone:

In Schiele everything comes back to the desiring subject, to the narcissistic, onanistic seat of all shimmering interests of self. "I am for myself," he writes in his "Self-Portrait" of 1910, "and for those to whom my thirsty, drunken craving to be free gives everything, and also for all, for I love—I also love all. I am the noblest of the noble" (Schiele 1921: 19; Nebehay 1979: 142). In his self-portraits, the noblest of the noble gives all that he knows of himself to the world.
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft5v19n...

Also:
"I am the noblest of the noble, and the humblest of the humble," Schiele once wrote in an autobiographical prose poem. "I am human. I love death and I love life."
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rtVKAQAAIAAJ&q="the noble...
oa_xxx (X) Jan 24, 2014:
taken from a poem by Schiele, Ein Selbstbild, 1910 http://www.egonschiele.at/home_en.php

unfortunately there are translations for the first few lines and the last but no one seems to have attempted this bit!
Lancashireman Jan 24, 2014:
Similar sort of thing in EN "Not backward in coming forward"
Rachel Ward (asker) Jan 24, 2014:
Leo link... ... already posted in my question, but thanks Andrew ;-)
Lancashireman Jan 24, 2014:
Wordplay discussed here: http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idThread=108...
vor-nehmen / rück- geben

Proposed translations

14 hrs
Selected

More noble than the nobility. More charitable than St. Martin

More noble than the nobility. More charitable than St. Martin

I think that's what is meant here. Not sure how "Rückgeber" can be seen negatively in this context.. I don't know much about Egon Schiele but I see a lot of pathos in that passage and no irony.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "This is the closest to what I'm going to end up with I think. Thanks to everyone for your insights and interesting discussion!"
21 mins

more noble-minded and able to convey than all others

I wonder if you can slightly reword it so that it sounds good in EN.

I understand 'rückgebig' in this context to mean that an artist experiences things more acutely than others and needs to be able to convey that to his audience. I think the following sentence explains this necessary sensibility.

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Note added at 26 mins (2014-01-24 12:04:24 GMT)
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It might be ok to translate 'vornehm' here as sensitive or perceptive or insightful, but artists at this time were generally happy to make statements about their artistic identities that sound very arrogant to today's ears. C.f. Kandinsky and his views on veiling his subject matter so that it could be understood only by those who were sufficiently enlightened.

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Note added at 28 mins (2014-01-24 12:06:16 GMT)
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EN might require you to add - in square brackets - what the artist was conveying: such as [his perceptions] or some such.

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Note added at 1 hr (2014-01-24 12:45:15 GMT)
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I can't see any way of conveying the wordplay, but maybe someone else will manage it. I'm not sure I actually subscribe to it as wordplay anyway. If it is there, it is very subtle and only a small part of what Schiele intends, in my view.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2014-01-24 15:53:50 GMT)
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Given Alison's link, I would definitely endorse a solution along those lines.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2014-01-24 16:22:52 GMT)
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more noble-minded and able to externalise than others - this might be a rather psychoanalytical take on it, but that in itself might fit the Vienna of Freud!! I would prefer to say something like 'externalise his inner truth' but I realise that is departing from the GER. Even so, I feel the EN needs more of an explanation. Again maybe a footnote or insertion in square brackets is the answer, though depending on the nature of the text, that might be a bit heavy-handed.
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2 hrs

illustrious/illustrative (wordplay)

the most illustrious amongst the illustrious and the most illustrative amongst the illustrative

vornehm = illustrious
rückgebig = able to illustrate for others

I think the wordplay is important, albeit slightly stretched. But this can be compensated for by retaining the grammatical structure of the original sentence.

PS: I note that BE 'amongst' gets a red squiggle from the spellchecker. AE 'among'.

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Note added at 6 hrs (2014-01-24 17:58:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another attempt, staying close to the original sentence structure, retaining the wordplay and reflecting the comments above on the 'real meaning' of rückgeberisch:
the most magnificent among(st) the magnificent and the most magnanimous among(st) the magnanimous


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Note added at 6 hrs (2014-01-24 18:00:32 GMT)
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or rückgebig even :-)
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10 hrs

from the lofty, the loftiest; from the reactors, the most reactionary

I'm going out on a limb in this one.........
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21 hrs

a nobleman's nobleman; an altruist's altruist

Just adding to the mix. It loses the wordplay completely, I'm afraid, but has the virtue of being relatively short and pithy.
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5 days

of the eminent, the pre-eminent, of those who give, the one giving the most

As reqested. Thanks. "Noble" might be preferable, or other variations on "giving". From those to whom mch has been given, much is expected?
Peer comment(s):
neutral Lancashireman : Alas too late. St. Martin has waltzed off with the points.
5 days
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Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

Für Schiele muss der Künstler der Seher unter
Blinden sein, von Vornehmen der Vornehmste; von
Rückgebern der Rückgebigste. Er muß Mensch sein,
mehr als je der andere, und er muß den Tod lieben und
das Leben.

Maybe you know this already but the poem that this is taken from is titled "Ein Selbstbild" - i.e. Schiele was talking about himself not all artists, perhaps he included it in the manifesto too, but I havent been able to find anything to confirm that yet.
Of course, this doesnt really help with finding a good translation but thought the full text might inspire someone!

Egon Schieles Gedicht: Ein Selbstbild, 1910

Ich bin für mich und die, denen
Die durstige Trunksucht nach
Freisein bei mir alles schenkt,
und auch für alle, weil alle
ich auch Liebe, - Liebe.

Ich bin von vornehmsten
Der Vornehmste
Und von Rückgebern
Der Rückgebigste

Ich bin Mensch, ich liebe
Den Tod und Liebe
Das Leben.

Info:
Der Lyriker Egon Schiele, Briefe und Gedichte 1910-1912 aus der Sammlung Leopold
Prestel Verlag, 2008
143 Seiten, 39,95 Euro
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2 hrs
Reference:

A Schiele poem

Egon Schieles Gedicht: Ein Selbstbild, 1910

Ich bin für mich und die, denen
Die durstige Trunksucht nach
Freisein bei mir alles schenkt,
und auch für alle, weil alle
ich auch Liebe, - Liebe.

Ich bin von vornehmsten
Der Vornehmste
Und von Rückgebern
Der Rückgebigste

Ich bin Mensch, ich liebe
Den Tod und Liebe
Das Leben.

[Interestingly, this is the only poem for which no English translation has been rendered on the website zocalopoets :-)]
Reference:

http://zocalopoets.com/2013/10/31/egon-schiele-ich-bin-mensch-ich-liebe-den-tod-und-liebe-das-leben-i-am-a-human-being-i-love-death-and-love

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Horst Huber (X)
1 day 11 hrs
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