Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
supra-divergent
English translation:
Counter-rotating
Added to glossary by
merlrennes
May 1, 2013 09:31
11 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
supra-divergent
French to English
Tech/Engineering
Ships, Sailing, Maritime
La présente étude se focalise sur les équipements électriques des navires;
Chaque navire est constitué de 2 lignes d’arbres supra-divergentes, chacune étant composée comme suit :
une hélice à pales orientables,
2 tronçons d’arbre immergé porté par un palier de chaise, un palier dans le tube d’étambot,
Chaque navire est constitué de 2 lignes d’arbres supra-divergentes, chacune étant composée comme suit :
une hélice à pales orientables,
2 tronçons d’arbre immergé porté par un palier de chaise, un palier dans le tube d’étambot,
Proposed translations
(English)
4 +2 | Counter-rotating | merlrennes |
5 +1 | counter-rotating outwards | Michael GREEN |
4 | counter-rotating | Tony M |
4 | supra diverging driving shaft | torjman |
3 -1 | 2 counter-rotating diverging axes | Daryo |
References
This may help... | Michael GREEN |
Change log
May 15, 2013 07:11: merlrennes Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+2
15 mins
Selected
Counter-rotating
This is a technical term that does not really have an English equivalent (see Forum discussion). The propellers rotate in opposite directions but looking at the stern of the ship, the right (starboard) propeller will rotate to the right (clockwise) and the left (port) to the left (counter-clockwise).
Supra-convergent - upper prop tips rotate inwards towards aircraft centreline
Supra-divergent - upper prop tips rotate outwards away from centreline
See: http://www.pprune.org/flight-testing/457899-a400m-supra-dive...
Supra-convergent - upper prop tips rotate inwards towards aircraft centreline
Supra-divergent - upper prop tips rotate outwards away from centreline
See: http://www.pprune.org/flight-testing/457899-a400m-supra-dive...
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Tony M
17 mins
|
agree |
EirTranslations
1 hr
|
agree |
Michael GREEN
: Sounds right to me ... // but on second thoughts, Daryo is right: we need to define HOW they are counter-rotating. "Counter-rotating outwards" ? See http://princessownersclub.com/quinna-iii-project/ and my reference below.
2 hrs
|
disagree |
Daryo
: you're not using your own reference - "Counter-rotating" has two options, the ST is about only one of them. Going left and going right is not the same?
3 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-1
3 hrs
French term (edited):
2 lignes d’arbres supra-divergentes
2 counter-rotating diverging axes
a pair of propellers on a boat will always be counter-rotating, to do otherwise is simply not an option (or more precisely an extremely bad option).
The additional meaning given by "supra-divergentes" is about which way these two propellers are rotating. They are rotating in opposite directions - one clockwise the other one anti-clockwise - sure, but that still leaves two options.
"supra-divergentes" means the top of each propeller is rotating away from the ship.
Couldn't find the term in EN for that, thus CL only 3 (but CL5 regarding what "lignes d’arbres supra-divergentes" means)
"Hélices multiples
Pour diverses raisons et, notamment, pour tenir compte des limites de résistance des matériaux, il est nécessaire de ne pas imprimer à une seule ligne d’arbres une trop forte poussée. Dans le cas de navires rapides dotés d’un puissant appareil propulsif (paquebots par exemple), on est donc conduit à répartir la puissance entre deux ou quatre lignes d’arbres (exceptionnellement trois). Malgré une perte de rendement, cette formule donne certaines facilités : possibilité d’une allure réduite avec deux lignes d’arbres au lieu de quatre, pour un rendement optimal de l’appareil moteur, poursuite du voyage avec un ou deux appareils propulsifs en panne, souplesse de manœuvre en faisant battre en avant les hélices d’un bord et en arrière celles de l’autre, etc.
En marche normale, la rotation en sens inverse de deux hélices jumelles évite la dissymétrie de l’écoulement des filets d’eau qui, dans le cas de l’hélice unique, oblige à donner un certain angle à la barre pour compenser leur action transversale.
Si deux hélices jumelles tournent vers l’intérieur du navire, elles sont supra-convergentes, et,
si elles tournent vers l’extérieur, elles sont supra-divergentes.
Cette dernière disposition assure une meilleure maniabilité et a, généralement, la faveur des constructeurs."
[http://www.larousse.fr/archives/grande-encyclopedie/page/653...]
The additional meaning given by "supra-divergentes" is about which way these two propellers are rotating. They are rotating in opposite directions - one clockwise the other one anti-clockwise - sure, but that still leaves two options.
"supra-divergentes" means the top of each propeller is rotating away from the ship.
Couldn't find the term in EN for that, thus CL only 3 (but CL5 regarding what "lignes d’arbres supra-divergentes" means)
"Hélices multiples
Pour diverses raisons et, notamment, pour tenir compte des limites de résistance des matériaux, il est nécessaire de ne pas imprimer à une seule ligne d’arbres une trop forte poussée. Dans le cas de navires rapides dotés d’un puissant appareil propulsif (paquebots par exemple), on est donc conduit à répartir la puissance entre deux ou quatre lignes d’arbres (exceptionnellement trois). Malgré une perte de rendement, cette formule donne certaines facilités : possibilité d’une allure réduite avec deux lignes d’arbres au lieu de quatre, pour un rendement optimal de l’appareil moteur, poursuite du voyage avec un ou deux appareils propulsifs en panne, souplesse de manœuvre en faisant battre en avant les hélices d’un bord et en arrière celles de l’autre, etc.
En marche normale, la rotation en sens inverse de deux hélices jumelles évite la dissymétrie de l’écoulement des filets d’eau qui, dans le cas de l’hélice unique, oblige à donner un certain angle à la barre pour compenser leur action transversale.
Si deux hélices jumelles tournent vers l’intérieur du navire, elles sont supra-convergentes, et,
si elles tournent vers l’extérieur, elles sont supra-divergentes.
Cette dernière disposition assure une meilleure maniabilité et a, généralement, la faveur des constructeurs."
[http://www.larousse.fr/archives/grande-encyclopedie/page/653...]
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Tony M
: 'divergent axes' would be just plain wrong, as it would suggest that the prop. shafts diverge axially, rather than saying anything about the rotational sense
49 mins
|
you can't just ignore the meaning of a term on the ground that there isn't a readyly available translation; "divergent" is no more obvious in FR; any better idea?
|
|
neutral |
Michael GREEN
: You make a good point, but I think it can be said more simply - see my reference notes below - "counter-rotating outwards" ?
3 hrs
|
33 mins
counter-rotating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-rotating_propellers
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Note added at 36 mins (2013-05-01 10:08:44 GMT)
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According to this Wiki article, the convention for counter-roatating aircraft propellers is supra-convergent, but it notes that the reverse configuration has also been used:
"Counter-rotating propellers generally spin clockwise on the left engine and counter-clockwise on the right. The advantage of such designs is that counter-rotating propellers balance the effects of torque and p-factor, eliminating the problem of the critical engine.
In designing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning, the decision was made to reverse the counter-rotation such that the "tops" of the propeller arcs move outwards, away from each other. Tests on the initial XP-38 prototype demonstrated greater accuracy in gunnery with the unusual configuration. The counter-rotating powerplants of the German World War II Henschel Hs 129 ground attack aircraft, Heinkel He 177 heavy bomber and Messerschmitt Me 323 transport used the same rotational "sense" as the production P-38 did."
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Note added at 7 hrs (2013-05-01 16:51:48 GMT)
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counter-rotating, such that the "tops" of the propeller arcs move outwards, away from each other
seems to be about as succinct as you can make it to me, if we have to get into explanations.
Alternatively, one might refer to 'inverse counter-rotating'; but the danger with that is that if the reader doesn't know which direction is 'normal', then 'inverse' won't mean anything anyway.
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Note added at 8 hrs (2013-05-01 17:32:59 GMT)
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Right, Michael's 'counter-rotating outwards' certainly seems concise — though is not actually unambiguous, as it presupposes we are all agreed that it is the TOP of the propellers that is moving outwards.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2013-05-01 10:08:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
According to this Wiki article, the convention for counter-roatating aircraft propellers is supra-convergent, but it notes that the reverse configuration has also been used:
"Counter-rotating propellers generally spin clockwise on the left engine and counter-clockwise on the right. The advantage of such designs is that counter-rotating propellers balance the effects of torque and p-factor, eliminating the problem of the critical engine.
In designing the Lockheed P-38 Lightning, the decision was made to reverse the counter-rotation such that the "tops" of the propeller arcs move outwards, away from each other. Tests on the initial XP-38 prototype demonstrated greater accuracy in gunnery with the unusual configuration. The counter-rotating powerplants of the German World War II Henschel Hs 129 ground attack aircraft, Heinkel He 177 heavy bomber and Messerschmitt Me 323 transport used the same rotational "sense" as the production P-38 did."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2013-05-01 16:51:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
counter-rotating, such that the "tops" of the propeller arcs move outwards, away from each other
seems to be about as succinct as you can make it to me, if we have to get into explanations.
Alternatively, one might refer to 'inverse counter-rotating'; but the danger with that is that if the reader doesn't know which direction is 'normal', then 'inverse' won't mean anything anyway.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2013-05-01 17:32:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Right, Michael's 'counter-rotating outwards' certainly seems concise — though is not actually unambiguous, as it presupposes we are all agreed that it is the TOP of the propellers that is moving outwards.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Michael GREEN
: This is obviously correct, Tony (and your notes are very interesting) but why did you post essentially the same answer as merlrennes, who got in 15 minutes earlier? // Fine Tony - but I have now had second thoughts, as you will have noticed ... ;-)
2 hrs
|
Thanks, Michael! As so often happens, I started posting and then went off to research; so I only discovered Merl's answer once the page refreshed. I'm afraid it happens all the time... / Luckily, it's not a race ;-)
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disagree |
Daryo
: If the ST gives only one option, why leave it ambiguous?
3 hrs
|
See my later suggestion, and Michael's final succinct solution.
|
+1
8 hrs
counter-rotating outwards
See all my discussion points and references below.
"Counter-rotating" can be in either of 2 directions (as Daryo has pointed out, and been shot down for his trouble), and "supra-divergent" means "counter-rotating outwards".
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Note added at 8 hrs (2013-05-01 18:13:31 GMT)
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For those who have not read - or don't have access to - the Discussion above, here is a definition, which seems clear enough to me, from http://www.modelflying.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=79157
"both rotating "inwards" - ie the top of the blade arc swings towards the fuselage"
Accordingly, "rotating outwards" means the top of the blade arc swings away from the fuselage - which complies with the FR definition of "supra-divergent".
I don't believe that leaves any room for ambiguity.
"Counter-rotating" can be in either of 2 directions (as Daryo has pointed out, and been shot down for his trouble), and "supra-divergent" means "counter-rotating outwards".
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Note added at 8 hrs (2013-05-01 18:13:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
For those who have not read - or don't have access to - the Discussion above, here is a definition, which seems clear enough to me, from http://www.modelflying.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=79157
"both rotating "inwards" - ie the top of the blade arc swings towards the fuselage"
Accordingly, "rotating outwards" means the top of the blade arc swings away from the fuselage - which complies with the FR definition of "supra-divergent".
I don't believe that leaves any room for ambiguity.
Example sentence:
Prop Make/Model: MTV-14-B-C-F, MT Propeller 4 Blade, 1998, counter rotating outwards
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Tony M
: Of course, I think we were all agreed on that point — it's just a question of how best to render it concisely; this is successful, BUT not 100% unambiguous
5 mins
|
Thank you Tony. I think we have gnawed at this bone enough now! I am happy it is not ambiguous ;-)
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2 days 11 hrs
supra diverging driving shaft
Ce sont des arbres moteurs qui transmettent le mouvement de rotation à d'autres pieces tels que des hélices . Dans ce cas elle sont divergentes , c'est a dire qu'elles tournent vers l'exterieur.
Reference comments
10 mins
Reference:
This may help...
I'm deep in another translation and don't have time to do much googling, but this link explains what it means.
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Note added at 7 hrs (2013-05-01 17:09:06 GMT)
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To follow up Daryo's comment:
http://princessownersclub.com/quinna-iii-project/
"Propellers Counter-rotating outwards
Original: 26 x 30-90909-IF 26 x 30-90909-2F"
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Note added at 7 hrs (2013-05-01 17:31:10 GMT)
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The opposite of supra-divergent / counter-rotating outwards is, logically, counter-rotating inwards, and the following link uses the term for aircraft:
http://www.modelflying.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=79157
"On really high power planes it became essential to have the props counter rotating inward (DH Hornet) although the P38 had them outward rotating for tail buffetting reasons but it made an engine failure on take off more serious.
Models tend to have a higher power to weight ratio than full size so inward counter rotating does make life rather easier even if it is not strictly scale."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2013-05-01 17:09:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
To follow up Daryo's comment:
http://princessownersclub.com/quinna-iii-project/
"Propellers Counter-rotating outwards
Original: 26 x 30-90909-IF 26 x 30-90909-2F"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2013-05-01 17:31:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The opposite of supra-divergent / counter-rotating outwards is, logically, counter-rotating inwards, and the following link uses the term for aircraft:
http://www.modelflying.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=79157
"On really high power planes it became essential to have the props counter rotating inward (DH Hornet) although the P38 had them outward rotating for tail buffetting reasons but it made an engine failure on take off more serious.
Models tend to have a higher power to weight ratio than full size so inward counter rotating does make life rather easier even if it is not strictly scale."
Example sentence:
" Vu de l'arrière, l'hélice de droite doit tourner en marche avant dans le sens horaire, l'hélice de gauche doit tourner contraire. Cette configuration est dite "supra divergente" "
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
Daryo
: yes; the bit that I find baffling is that no one is using this information! It's not any "counter-rotating" it's only one of the two possible!
3 hrs
|
I take your point - we need to define the type of "counter-rotation". See my second web link.
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agree |
Tony M
8 hrs
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Discussion
IMO, that translation is "counter-rotating outwards".
The term is clearly recognised by people working in the field and the definition given in one of my links confirms that it is correct.
The source text does not include a definition, and I don't see any need to include one with the translation.
It is perfectly clear that these terms are used with confidence by (eg) designers or (in 2 of my links) people selling boats and planes, and if there was any ambiguity, they would be in danger of having problems with the potential purchasers ...
"Supra-convergente" and "supra-divergente" would be equally ambiguous, in the absence of convenient definitions, to people not working in the field.
As far as I am concerned, the definition I came across, and quoted above and in my answer, removes any doubt.
I don't think for a moment this is a real problem, but instead of getting all tied up in knots about the undisputed definition, we really need to concentrate on the ambiguity of the solution — and whether this is important or not.
I can't understand why you seem to be completely missing the point of what I'm try to say:
long definition = 100% OK
concise version = potentialy ambiguous
"both rotating "inwards" - ie the top of the blade arc swings towards the fuselage"
http://www.modelflying.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=79157
Accordingly, "rotating outwards" means the top of the blade arc swings away from the fuselage - which complies with the FR definition, "supra-divergent".
The problem is, merely saying 'outwards' fails to specifiy if it is the top or the bottom of the prop that moves outwards (hence the 'supra-' in FR) — so actually, your suggestion is no less ambiguous than the others, EXCEPT if everyone is in prior agreement that we are going to talk about the TOP of the props. Luckily, we in the Western word tend to be supra-dextra-centric, so that isn't likely to be too much of a problem — but the fact remains that there is not a simple, concise, and 100% unambiguous way of saying this in EN as there fortunately is in FR!
If you read the definition, it is obviously the top of the propeller which is moving outwards ...
" Vu de l'arrière, l'hélice de droite doit tourner en marche avant dans le sens horaire, l'hélice de gauche doit tourner contraire. Cette configuration est dite "supra divergente" ""
See my latest reference below.
I rest my case ....
I think Daryo has made a good point: "counter-rotating" can be in either of two directions, and a little googling came up with "counter-rotating outwards", which to me, at least, describes two screws turning away from each other (ie away from the centre-line).
See my reference below.