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se révèle
Nov 28, 2012 20:15
11 yrs ago
9 viewers *
French term

alors que

Non-PRO French to English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters French conjunctive phrase (used here in a legal text)
Inspiré du Cadre de gestion concernant l’ajout d’équipement médical, non médical et mobilier (Circulaire 2009-023), le processus de planification et de priorisation des besoins pour l’ajout en consolidation d’équipement est fondé sur des paramètres nationaux et sur des directives régionales, alors que dans le cas de l’ajout en consolidation, ce processus de planification et de priorisation d’équipement tient compte de directives nationales et régionales.

Is it just me, or is the distinction being made here (I am taking 'alors que' to mean 'whereas') really not clear? It looks like they are talking about the same thing: 'l'ajout en consolidation d'equipement' (which I am understanding, in this case, to be the addition of medical equipment for consolidation purposes)...

Perhaps I am just too tired to see the obvious!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +5 although/whereas
3 +4 while
References
ref
Change log

Nov 28, 2012 20:39: cc in nyc changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Nov 28, 2012 21:19: writeaway changed "Field" from "Law/Patents" to "Other" , "Field (specific)" from "Business/Commerce (general)" to "General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters" , "Field (write-in)" from "Upgrading of public health facilities" to "French conjunctive phrase (used here in legal text) "

Nov 28, 2012 21:37: writeaway changed "Field (write-in)" from "French conjunctive phrase (used here in legal text) " to "French conjunctive phrase (used here in a legal text) "

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (3): Marie Jackson, Subbanna, cc in nyc

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Discussion

Wolf Draeger Dec 2, 2012:
While can express a non-contrasting difference between two situations, as in "He ate bacon for breakfast, while she had toast", i.e. different, but not opposite. I think that's the meaning of "alors que" in this case. "Whereas" usually indicates a clear contrast.

@BD: you're quite right, we are prone to over-thinking source texts. Part of the fun :-)
B D Finch Dec 2, 2012:
Temporal or not? I think that any temporal meaning in the source text is very weak, while the comparison is certainly there but weak. Translators, being linguists, face the problem that we are frequently more aware of and concerned with niceties of meaning than were the writers of the source texts. So, we are often dealing with the question "What would the writer have meant if he or she had bothered to think about the particular distinction we are concerned with?"
French2English (asker) Dec 1, 2012:
Tony, Of course, of course - I simply meant that as in this particular case it was clearly a comparison being made (no temporal element at all) there was no actual difference between 'while' or a 'whereas'. For comparisons I would ALWAYS prefer to use 'whereas'. And now, I am going to leave that guy to get on with his ironing...a man's work is never done! :)
Tony M Dec 1, 2012:
Difference... Well, in some contexts, there can be an implied difference, of greater or lesser significance depending on the situation. In particular, where the 'while' has any kind of temporal connotation, and/or where 'whereas' implies some kind of comparison. Both terms are used with much weaker meanings as well, where they might be regarded as interchangeable; but not always!

Cf. "Nero fiddled while Rome burned" — temporal meaning, would sound silly to replace it with 'whereas' here!

"He did the ironing while the chicken was cooking" (temporal)

"He did the ironing, whereas she did the cooking" (comparison)

Given the etymology, I always regard 'alors que...' as starting off from the same temporal connotation as 'while', and 'tandis que...' as having more the sense of 'whereas' in EN. And in FR, just as in EN, they are often used interchangeably — but not in all circumstances.
cc in nyc Dec 1, 2012:
@ French2English IMO, the only difference is one of register – unless using "while" causes ambiguity.
For more info, see Grammar Girl (who apparently wound up eating humble pie on this question): http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/although-versus-while.a...

At least she is honest and frank – plus her writing is pretty clear.
French2English (asker) Dec 1, 2012:
Oh dearie me.... all these whiles and whereases are all very well, but personally, I don't see the difference. If anyone can explain to me the difference between these two sentences, I will organise a prize: "John is tall, whereas Peter is short" - "John is tall, while Peter is short". There is no difference. They mean exactly the same!
cc in nyc Nov 29, 2012:
As the case may be... ...but there's a still larger question about the meaning and relationship of the clauses linked by "alors que."
writeaway Nov 29, 2012:
imo things got confused by assuming alors que means whereas here. imo it means while
cc in nyc Nov 29, 2012:
also fwiw French2English knows how to transliate "alors que"; the difficulty lies elsewhere in the text.

Perhaps this should have been a Forum question, not a Kudoz question? But I may not be a good judge of that (a little slim on Forum participation myself).
writeaway Nov 29, 2012:
fwiw-it's a conjunction and not legalese at all It's not legalese but regrettably there is no grammar/parts of speech category so general is closest. Unfortunately it's tied in with conversation but this is definitely general and not legalese or any other specialist field. The discussion seems to have taken on a life of its own and gone away from the actual Kudoz question: how to translate the conjunctive phrase 'alors que' in the context. However even this much discussion shouldn't cloud the fact that it's a basic conjunction commonly used in (written) French.
cc in nyc Nov 28, 2012:
On the other hand... ...the expression "alors que" doesn't seem to be the issue... is it?
French2English (asker) Nov 28, 2012:
On a general note.... ...regarding reclassification of the question, all I can say is God help us all if this sort of thing ever becomes General, Conversational or, even worse, a Greeting :(
French2English (asker) Nov 28, 2012:
Wolf.... yes, looks like you agree with Tony's suggestion and I am now seeing it that way too.... pretty sure that is the distinction being made. Thanks for input.
Wolf Draeger Nov 28, 2012:
Perhaps the distinction is between what the equipment will be used for (besoins) and the equipment itself (ajout), so between the needs and the means.

Bureaucratic language is a one-way conversation...:-)
French2English (asker) Nov 28, 2012:
Tony..... Aaahhh... I am glad that you too see a bit of vagueness here too, which makes me think that I am not going mad after all. I think, on the strength of what you say, and CC's suggestion, I will definitely ask the client for clarification, just to be sure... and I think you may be right that the distinction probably lies more in the 'besoins' bit. ..... thanks, this is very helpful.
Tony M Nov 28, 2012:
I think... The distinction being made is between l'ajout d'équipment, which is going to include the besoins pour l'ajout en consolidation (presumably, subsequent), and then that actual subsequent ajout en consolidation.

It looks to me (vaguely) as if they are saying that the basic policy decisions are being taken as to 'what we need now and what we are going to need next', so that when they get to the 'what we need next' bit, some of the decision-making has already been done.
cc in nyc Nov 28, 2012:
@ French2English Perhaps they are somewhat different, but also close enough to ask the Client about the distinction being made.
French2English (asker) Nov 28, 2012:
cc in nyc..... ....yes, I think you are much closer to the trail.... I wondered if that was where it lay.... and if so, I feel it is a rather vague distinction....
French2English (asker) Nov 28, 2012:
Well yes, but.... my point was that I don't see the DISTINCTION BEING MADE!!!
cc in nyc Nov 28, 2012:
@French2Englsih Perhaps the distinction is between:
• est fondé sur des paramètres nationaux et sur des directives régionales --and--
• tient compte de directives nationales et régionales.

Proposed translations

+5
3 mins
Selected

although/whereas

Seems pretty obvious to me here
Peer comment(s):
agree Verginia Ophof : whereas
3 mins
Merci Verginia
agree Ricardy Ricot
5 mins
Merci Ricardy
agree Marie Jackson : but of course!
7 mins
Merci Marie
agree Lara Barnett : Whereas
29 mins
Merci Lara
agree MatthewLaSon : Absolutely!
8 hrs
merci Matthew
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+4
2 hrs

while

Suitably vague? It may cover things other than what is meant, just as the source text seems to do.
Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : wondered if anyone would finally come up with this. would have ended the discussion long ago imo/it makes more sense to find a translation that fits the context rather than carry on and on trying to fit the context to the (wrong) translation.
1 hr
Thanks writeaway - Apparently it didn't.
agree Tony M : I always treat this is the 'base' meaning of 'alors que', and then look to see what other options might fit better if necessary.
8 hrs
Thanks Tony
agree Miranda Joubioux (X)
10 hrs
Thanks Miranda
agree Wolf Draeger
3 days 16 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

ref

A conjunctive phrase is a group of two or more words that function as a conjunction. French conjunctive phrases usually end in que and are usually subordinating conjunctions.

alors que while, whereas

http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/conjunctions_5.htm

additional translation options in Fr-En dictionaries
Something went wrong...
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