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Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

Andragoge

English translation:

adult education specialist/theorist and/or practitioner (andragogue)

Added to glossary by adamgajlewicz
Mar 11, 2011 16:52
13 yrs ago
2 viewers *
German term

Andragoge

German to English Social Sciences Education / Pedagogy Andragogy
Andragoge

- haupt- oder nebenamtlich tätiger Lehrer bzw. Lehrerin in der Erwachsenenbildung.

I don't have any further context. I'm afraid androgogue is not the word. Does anyone have any ideas how this term translates into English? I'm really stumped so any help will be much appreciated.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 Adult education teacher
4 andragogue
Change log

Mar 13, 2011 08:29: adamgajlewicz changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/706018">adamgajlewicz's</a> old entry - "Andragoge"" to ""adult education specialist/theorist and/or practitioner (andragogue)""

Mar 13, 2011 08:35: adamgajlewicz changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/706018">adamgajlewicz's</a> old entry - "Andragoge"" to ""adult education specialist/theorist and/or practitioner (andragogue)""

Discussion

adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 12, 2011:
Thank you all for your help... based on your invaluable input and information, with due respect to the reader's intelligence as well as desiring to forge a compromise with all the contributors and commentators, I am going to add "adult education specialist/theorist and/or practitioner (andragogue)" to the glossary, with a cordial invitation to study our detailed discussion of the issue.
Bernhard Sulzer Mar 12, 2011:
@Adam, in support of andragogy: The asker of the other Kudoz question - http://www.proz.com/kudoz/polish_to_english/education_pedago...
states:
I need this word not in respect of teachers at schools but as theoretical, academic scholars also referring to the history of pedagogy and andragogy. I would appreciate any advice.
But here, you state: haupt- oder nebenamtlich tätiger Lehrer bzw. Lehrerin in der Erwachsenenbildung. Educator or scholar?
Andragogy is used to describe a particular theory/concept of education/learning. I don't find any evidence that Knowles himself referred to the teacher/educator or scholar as "andragogue".
There are sources (really just a few) using the word "andragogue" describing the person who applies the concept/theory of "andragogy" but I doubt "andragogue" is a fairly well established term in English, even academically. If it is necessary to convey the use of the concept/theory of andragogy used by an educator or applied by an educationist or to refer to the history of andragogy, I would use "andragogy" and work with that word only. For example: Adult educator/education specialist (using Knowles' theory of andragogy).
oa_xxx (X) Mar 12, 2011:
@adam Interesting discussion!! I did read the previous posts which was why I didnt agree with or suggest using the word teacher - it all depends on the context - is this a highly academic text or not? And is it a title/subheading or not?
As I suggested before using words like scholar/researcher or specialist would suit the context but why have you got "haupt- oder nebenamtlich tätiger Lehrer" in the question - can that be ignored? I actually agree with Johanna - but it does depend on the context. I would probably still break it up.
Johanna Timm, PhD Mar 12, 2011:
intelligence aside, Andrew, I just quoted the Asker's explanations.
Lancashireman Mar 12, 2011:
With Johanna We should aim at all times to “respect the intelligence of the reader” and to be “particularly careful translating words” and to “handle questions with extreme caution”.
Horst Huber (X) Mar 12, 2011:
If "andragogy" is acceptable, but "andragogue" is not, what would prevent us using "teacher in ..." or "practitioner of ...". De gustibus ...
Johanna Timm, PhD Mar 12, 2011:
..continued The same could be said for “Eurythmie”, a special form of dance practiced in Waldorf schools. While it is a very foreign concept to many people over here, the standard translation is “Eurythmy”, not “poetic dance”.
We need to respect the intelligence of the reader. I’m quoting the Asker:” One has to be particularly careful translating words like pedagogue and andragoge and this is why those Polish expert translators trying to help the asker are handling the question with extreme caution. The asker needs to have a reasonable certainty that the word she is going to use in the text will be perfectly correct. “
Exactly. An „ein Lehrer in der Erwachsenenbildung“ is a „teacher of adult education ” . Ein “Anthroposoph” is an “anthroposophist”. And “ein Andragoge” is “an andragogue”; it may sound unusual , but that’s because it isunusual.
Johanna Timm, PhD Mar 12, 2011:
andragogue I’d like to add a few notes in support of efreitag here and to try and illustrate how important it is to respect and preserve the “foreignness” of a word in a highly specialized context (which seems to be the case here)
Example: “Anthroposophie”- while the average German will be vaguely familiar with the basics of A. and associate a few things with Anthroposophen (Weleda, Waldorf education), the average North American does not really know much about “anthroposophy” ; it is generally understood as a slightly weird branch of European esotericism; nevertheless, supporters of this belief system are called - of course!, “anthroposophists” or ”anthroposophers”; nobody would call them “ esoteric philosophers” just because that’s simpler and easier to understand.
Ramey Rieger (X) Mar 11, 2011:
The question is if Andragogy is a specific teaching/education method, then reference should be made to it. BUT if the text is to be UNDERSTOOD, then perhaps in parenthesis" adult educator (andragogue)" or Kim's suggestion "adult education specialist (andragogue)". Would this be an alternative?
Erik Freitag Mar 11, 2011:
At the risk of being called "grumpy" ... This is a highly specialized term. As Orla quite rightly pointed out, andragogy is not the same as adult education. The term is closely related to the name of Malcolm Knowles. The term "andragogue" is frequently found in texts dealing with his philosophy. The fact that many people have never heard the term before (including myself, and this is true for the German "Andragoge" as well as the English "andragogue"), or the fact that to many peoples' ears it sounds awkward (a view that I share as well, for both languages) does not mean that it shouldn't be used.

As far as I can see, I'm the only contributor so far who has substantiated his suggestion with references to relevant texts showing this exact usage of the word, rather than relying on purely subjective statements along the lines of "it doesn't sound nice", "you just don't say that", or "I've never heard that before".

I'm well aware of the fact that, being non-native in English, I can't comment on how this sounds to English speaking people. I just think that this question is largely irrelevant here, given that the term is actually being used this way in this very subject field.

adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
Thank you all for your time, input and the help with a translation which was particularly difficult
in all respects.
Kim Metzger Mar 11, 2011:
Given the context for the Polish question, teacher would appear to be out of the question. As an American, I would opt for adult education specialist and steer well clear of androgogue or pedagogue/pedagogy.
Lancashireman Mar 11, 2011:
If -gogy, why not -gogue? Sounds like a reasonable question - if you are a speaker of German. After all, -gogik and -goge have both been enthusiastically embraced by the language. Although you may find references to variations on -gogy in English academic publications, the suffix -gogue is simply not used, either for a practitioner (teacher) or a theorist/researcher (educationist).
adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
@orla "Note that adult education and andragogy are not synonyms - andragogy is a method used in adult education, pedagogical methods can also be applied." I have almost missed this out. So that is not just the question of one word being used more often than the other but you're suggesting they have two different meanings? Then we have a problem again...
adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
@Kim Do you think you could support Ramey? Or you're not sure this is the right word?
adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
@Andrew "avoided in part for aesthetic reasons". Exactly, this is why I was stunned when I read that it was "Just as described in your context: Someone working in adult education" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andragogy .
adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
@orla You probably haven't read the previous posts. But if I understand it correctly, the asker's text applies to academic scholars and the history of pedagogy and andragogy. http://tinyurl.com/5rrnmem
Kim Metzger Mar 11, 2011:
Sonja Someone who teaches adult education or who teaches adults?
Sonja Marks-Terrey Mar 11, 2011:
Teacher of adult education In the UK we tend to say teacher of adult education or adult education teacher, rather than educationist or variations on that theme.
oa_xxx (X) Mar 11, 2011:
One thing - is this a title/subtitle as its laid out in your question? That of course makes it a bit trickier. Have to admit, I'd still personally pick something like:
adult educationists
- specialising in andragogy - or whatever explanation fits best - does the part-time/full-time not imply that teachers/practitioners etc are meant?
Lancashireman Mar 11, 2011:
Dizzygogues My impression too. The suffix lacks a certain grace in English and is no doubt avoided in part for aesthetic reasons. By contrast, it appears to have found general acceptance in German. That is perhaps why it sounded quite natural to your first contributor.
oa_xxx (X) Mar 11, 2011:
I dont think youll get the one exact answer - I would say andragogue is a word but seldom used even in scholarly texts, if the source text is highly academic you could probably use it; otherwise I would turn it around and say adult educators/educationists etc. specialising in andragogy - (many options: researchers,scholars, adult education specialists etc./the field/discipline/area of andragogy or andragogical...learning/methods/etc.etc.) Note that adult education and andragogy are not synonyms - andragogy is a method used in adult education, pedagogical methods can also be applied. All these -gogs are making me dizzy! Good luck!
adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
@efreitag I'm afraid I can't "draw my own conclusions". I have never heard the word before. I would be extremely happy to see ONLY ONE answer solidly supported by at least four translators. It's a tough term.
adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
I am aware one has to be particularly careful translating words like pedagogue and andragoge and this is why those Polish expert translators trying to help the asker are handling the question with extreme caution. The asker needs to have a reasonable certainty that the word she is going to use in the text will be perfectly correct.
Erik Freitag Mar 11, 2011:
There's always context Now we have some context at least. From the Polish Kudoz question:

"I need this word not in respect of teachers at schools but as theoretical, academic scholars also referring to the history of pedagogy and andragogy."

Draw your own conclusions.
adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
Actually, I wanted to help a Polish translator who posted it on the Polish kudoz webpage http://tinyurl.com/5rrnmem ...
Erik Freitag Mar 11, 2011:
Don't be mislead Don't be mislead: The fact that we haven't heard a word before, or the fact that it sounds strange, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

There probably is a reason why the author of the source text didn't use "Lehrer in der Erwachsenenbildung" (or something like that, which is what "adult educationist" would translate back to), but "Andragoge".

Don't try to be smarter than the original author.
adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
adult educationist practitioner? Could you post it, please?
Lancashireman Mar 11, 2011:
-ionist or -ionalist? My preference is without the extra 'al'. And Google seems to bear this out 3:1.
adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
So, adult educationist sounds better? And adult educationist practitioner is the word, is that right?
Lancashireman Mar 11, 2011:
adult educationist is the 'theoretician': http://www.google.co.uk/search?q="adult educationist"&hl=en&...
However, you may have a 'practitioner' here, as Ramey suggests, i.e. a teacher working in adult education.
adamgajlewicz (asker) Mar 11, 2011:
@Andrew You're right, Andrew. I know andragogy exists, I saw the Wikipedia entry. But are you sure "andragogue" is the exact equivalent? If so, can you agree with efreitag?
Lancashireman Mar 11, 2011:
Definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andragogy
Just as described in your context: Someone working in adult education

Proposed translations

+2
9 mins
Selected

Adult education teacher

I haven't found anything to back up the obvious translation "andragogue", so here's an alternative that I know exists
Note from asker:
Thank you, Ramey.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Erik Freitag : Wrong register./Where did you look for references to back up "andragogue"? Not that hard to find, I'd say./With the additional context given by the asker: Doesn't fit the context (changed to disagree).
11 mins
I use BIBB and nothing turned up - besides, I've taught for 20 years and NEVER heard of this. Guess I'm just an average mortal after all!
agree Lancashireman : Don't be 'mislead' (sic). Register is perfect.
26 mins
I'm known to be thick-skinned (in some areas)
agree British Diana : I'm one and I wouldn't like to be given a strange name (Andragogue) I've literally never heard of
55 mins
Tis weird, tisn't it? Thanks Diana
agree Susanna MacKenzie : precise and colloquial
2 hrs
Thank you, m'lady!
neutral oa_xxx (X) : purely because the context has been amended above and apparently does not apply to teachers;for other contexts this would be perfect
11 hrs
let's see what the asker decides at this point. Have a nice weekend!
neutral Djschinx : when you specifically said you were not referring to teachers I dont see how you can give this answer points - no offence intended, I agree its good for other contexts but not here...
12 days
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I hope this helps the original asker. adult education specialist/theorist and/or practitioner - dynamic equivalent, paraphrase. andragogue - formal equivalent, metaphrase."
3 mins

andragogue

You're right: androgogue indeed isn't the word. It's andragogue.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 Min. (2011-03-11 17:03:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I usually like to let the asker do some basic googling, but here goes:

Jarvis, Peter and Wilson, Arthur L.: International dictionary of adult and continuing education (http://books.google.de/books?id=REE9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 Min. (2011-03-11 17:06:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://digitalcommons.bolton.ac.uk/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 Min. (2011-03-11 17:08:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Andragogues and WL advocates alike will recognize the respective descriptions of their two camps, and they will assent to the assertion that both WL and andragogy concur in the following--self-directed learning (Grow, 1991), the sense that the learner's interest and needs, abilities, and styles of learning are controlling the learning experience (as opposed to the teacher and the learning experience controlling the learner), is of uppermost importance. David Caverly corrects rhetorical excess on both sides to say that neither andragogy nor WL is wholly "self-directed," but that both are, in a Vygotskian constructivist sense, "learning communities" in which the teacher/expert "guides but does not limit" the learning of the student/novice (whether adult or child), and "both novice and expert grow and learn" and the goals of both are realized (Caverly, 1994).

(http://www.indiana.edu/~reading/ieo/digests/d125.html)
Note from asker:
I know, there was a typo... But anyway, I would appreciate a few good links...
Thank you for your quick reply and detailed information. Andragogue is a technically correct term (especially as a formal equivalent - metaphrase). Apparently it is less common as the majority have observed. I know you deserve the points, too. But the Kudoz rules do not provide for such a possibility.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Lancashireman : Are you seriously suggesting this as a word that could or would be used in English?
3 mins
Absolutely, why not./Did you actually have a look at the references I provided?
agree Johanna Timm, PhD : fully agree with your reasoning, incl. in the discussion box
2 hrs
Thanks!
disagree Susanna MacKenzie : While it may exist in a scientific context, I would not use it here. You wouldn't want to translate "Pädagoge" with "pedagogue" either, would you?
2 hrs
You wouldn't use it here? Where's here? The only context we've got is: theoretical, academic scholarship, referring to the history of pedagogy and andragogy.
agree Djschinx : scientific/academic context was wanted here - history of the terminology in this thesis (by an english speaker) http://eprints.qut.edu.au/30346/1/George_Henry_Thesis.pdf
12 days
Thanks! I hadn't found this one. Nice example. Unfortunately, I'm under the impression that some people here have chosen to ignore the references we provided. The "I've never heard this, so it must be wrong!" prevails.
Something went wrong...
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