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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

pendant la communauté

English translation:

during the community (of property) / while the community (of property) is in effect [may need to define terms]

Added to glossary by Charlotte Allen
Sep 11, 2010 08:26
13 yrs ago
5 viewers *
French term

pendant la communauté

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) Pre-nuptial agreement; divorce law
In context:

"La communauté se compose passivement à titre définitif des dettes contractées par eux pendant la communauté pour l'entretien du ménage et l'éducation des enfants, conformément à l'article 220 du Code civil, et à titre définitif ou sauf récompense, selon les cas, des autres dettes nées pendant la communauté, conformément aux dispositions des articles 1412 et 1413 du Code civil."

Most of this particular clause of a prenuptial agreement is simply a paraphrasing of Article 1409 of the Code Civil. The unofficial English translation of this article gives "during the community" for "pendant la communauté". However, the community in question is a "community of property" created by the matrimonial property regime in question, so it seems a little awkward to say "during the community". On the other hand, we routinely say "during the marriage", because we view a marriage as extending over a period of time. Surely here it would be better to use an expression closer to "while the community of property subsists"? But how to express this succinctly in English?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 During the Community
4 +1 during the community property regime
4 during the conjugal community of property
4 while the community exists
4 for the duration of the joint ownership of matrimonial goods and assets
2 while community property status applies
References
Perhaps you could use "during the commun...
Change log

Sep 30, 2010 08:37: Charlotte Allen Created KOG entry

Discussion

AllegroTrans Sep 12, 2010:
Asker presumably needs a translation that will be clearly understood in the UK. "Community", however woven into the term, will simply confuse.
joehlindsay Sep 11, 2010:
I am originally from New Orleans. The term "community property regime" is common there, and is considered a 'civil' (as opposed to English) law concept. Since this describes a marriage in a civil law country, it might be appropriate.

About 10 US states have adopted 'community property', but besides Louisiana, I don't know that the word regime is used. Since it refers to a marriage in France, it doesn't seem it would be too inappropriate.

It may be originally French and unfamiliar in the UK, but it would be universally understood in the US where it has been law in many major states like Texas and California for a long time.
Charlotte Allen (asker) Sep 11, 2010:
@Bourth - This specific use of "communauté" (Articles 1409 et seq. of the Code Civil) relates only to marriages, although I can't say for sure whether this has/will be extended to PACS. "Co-propriété" is different from "communauté" legally-speaking.

I agree with you that 'conjugal' is out of place in this context - althought strictly it is simply a synonym of 'matrimonial' and ought to be able to be used interchangeably with it, it has become too closely identified with terms such as 'conjugal visit' (just as 'connubial' has with 'connubial bliss'!)

I still think "during the community" is odd and open to misunderstanding in English in a way that it is not in French. For a start, the very concept of a "community of property" in a marriage is not something that Anglo-American brains are particularly familiar with, and once we have got our heads around the notion, we don't naturally perceive it as something that is ongoing, like a marriage, or a journey, say. It certainly raises interesting issues about the concept of time in translation.
Bourth (X) Sep 11, 2010:
If "community" is defined, then like "marriage" it can surely be legitimate to attribute to it the meaning of "extending over a period of time".

You have the context. Without it I would be wary of throwing in "conjugal". Years ago it was very difficult for unmarried persons to jointly buy a house in France, or so it seemed at the time, whereas everybody seems to be doing it these days, so I suspect communauté applies to non-conjugal relationships far more these days than it used to.

Note too that the common meaning of community pertaining to "II.2.A body of people organized into a political, municipal, or social unity" [SOED] is the first that springs to mind. However, consider also "I.1.The quality of appertaining to all in common; common ownership, liability, etc." [SOED] where the "root" is "common". I think with that definition "community" works in your text: "during the community" means "during the (period of) common ownership, liability, etc.", like "during the (period of) marriage".
Callum Walker Sep 11, 2010:
perhaps... something along the lines of 'for the time that the community of marital property was in effect'? Obviously the wording needs improving, but that is how i understand it.

Proposed translations

+1
1 hr
Selected

During the Community

I suggest that you deal with this by including the words "the Community" in a list of defined terms at the beginning of the document. Otherwise, you would have to repeat something such as "during (the period of) community of property" every time.

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Note added at 1 hr (2010-09-11 10:26:25 GMT)
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At least in England and Wales, the correct term is "matrimonial property", not "marital" or "conjugal" property.
Peer comment(s):
agree John Fossey : Thats the way it is here in Quebec, which is similar to France.
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "This is exactly what I did in the end - defined the term the first time it occurred and then stopped worrying about it!"
8 mins

during the conjugal community of property

is my revised suggestion

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Note added at 21 Min. (2010-09-11 08:48:28 GMT)
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OR : the debts which have accrued during the duration of the conjugal community of property.

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Note added at 1 Stunde (2010-09-11 09:44:58 GMT)
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the preposition OF is not absolutetly necessary (as explained in the following link); DICT.cc confirms the term conjugal, but one also comes across the term marital. So it is up to you to decide ....

Community property is a marital property regime that originated in civil law jurisdictions and is now also found in some common law jurisdictions. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_property
Peer comment(s):
neutral B D Finch : "Conjugal" is used more about the physical than about the legal relationship.// "Conjugal rights" are sexual rights, not property rights unless women are considered to be property. The different usage of "conjugal" is generally evident to native speakers.
1 hr
sorry, but your comments make me contradict you. To begin with, you come across conjugal in quite a number of legal terms, e.g. conjugal rights, duties, faith etc. and Second: I mentioned thast marital may be used as well.
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12 hrs

while the community exists

another idea

I also think cmwilliams provides an interesting suggestion -- appending the word régime will remind Anglo/Americans that this is a specific arrangement of property during marriage/partnership, and that community is being used in a different way from the typical usage in Common Law.
Note from asker:
Thank you for your suggestion - I think this could also have been a good solution.
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+1
12 hrs

during the community property regime

Please refer to my comments in the reference section.
Peer comment(s):
neutral joehlindsay : Regime is definitely used in Louisiana and other civil law jurisdictions. I don't think it is in other US states.
2 hrs
agree writeaway : definitely
57 days
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14 hrs

while community property status applies

You show to be in the UK which might be different. In the US 'community property' is a common term rather than 'community of property'

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Note added at 14 hrs (2010-09-11 23:20:27 GMT)
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Or as Callum Walker words it "While community property status is in effect."
Note from asker:
Another good suggestion - thanks. Like the "while...in effect" suggestion.
Something went wrong...
8 hrs

for the duration of the joint ownership of matrimonial goods and assets

my suggestion

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Note added at 1 day14 hrs (2010-09-12 22:29:01 GMT)
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I deliberately avoid "community" in this context - it is simply a term that will not be understood in the UK - the reality is that it means, effectively, "joint and several ownership of goods by both spouses" and although long-winded, I don't know any other meaningful way of saying it for UJ-English ears to understand
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Reference comments

8 hrs
Reference:

Perhaps you could use "during the community property regime', as used in Louisiana. Although it may not be ideal, it makes it a bit clearer than just using 'community'.

Any property acquired by a spouse as a result of a voluntary partition of the married couple's community property during the community property regime. ...
www.lsba.org/.../BrochureDetails.asp?...2...

An obligation incurred by a spouse before or during the community property regime may be satisfied after termination of the regime from the property of the ...
divorce.uslegal.com/.../louisiana-community-property-agreement-law/
Note from asker:
Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the discussion - very much appreciated.
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