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компанию суннитам составят и шииты
Полнота должностной инструкции
Sep 8, 2010 17:17
13 yrs ago
Russian term

Ответственность (in context)

Russian to English Bus/Financial Human Resources
This appears as a heading for a short list in a job description. What follows are three problematic items—in short, failure to adequately execute job responsibilities, violations committed, and cause of material loss to employer.

I don't know what this should be in HR terms. Accountability, Liability?
Thanks in advance.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 Disciplinary Liability
4 +2 Demerit (in context :))
5 +1 XYZ is charged with the following violations
5 responsibilities
5 charges are brought against XYZ for the following violations
4 disciplinary action

Discussion

Alex Marshall Sep 13, 2010:
Michael, It finally hit home. Tatyanal has given way to Tatyana Oleneva. Well done! Should we expect a word of thanks?
Michael Korovkin Sep 10, 2010:
alex, you're digging yourself deeper into... ... the hole...
Alex Marshall Sep 10, 2010:
Michael, come to think of it, this nickname could be carrying some hidden meaning. Taty is slang for tattoo. And am I the one to tell you that nowadays no place is sacred for tattoo artists.
Michael Korovkin Sep 10, 2010:
Ребята, модераторы нас скоро сожрут за нарушения всех кудосных правил
уже, наверное, готовят список “ответственностей“!
Angela Greenfield Sep 10, 2010:
Oh, gee, guys! What dirty minds! And no, I didn't think Alex meant me. I just laughed at Michaels Гринфилдиха and loved it, because it sounds like Черепаха, which associates in my mind with the Черепаха Тортилла, the character I dearly love. :-)
Alex Marshall Sep 10, 2010:
Really? No disrespect intended, but really? How about Tatyana, period? Well, it's none of my business. Sorry to have brought it up.
e-solutions (X) Sep 10, 2010:
That is my name, gentlemen -- nice to meet you too.
Michael Korovkin Sep 10, 2010:
you mean tatyanal? Yeah, women often are that! (That's why they wash dishes so well, Angie, baby without the soft sign!)
Yes, hillarious now that I've noticed it! (Sorry, Taty!)
Yours, Mikyoral
Alex Marshall Sep 10, 2010:
Michael, Angela, I didn't mean you, by any means. I know who you guys are. And I know Michael by reputation. I mean an actual nickname that you can see on this page. Look closely. Or just forget it. Somehow it struck me ass odd and caused quite a belly laugh.
e-solutions (X) Sep 9, 2010:
а вообще, господа, давайте больше контекста - а то вырвут 3 слова откуда-то, а тут сиди голову ломай
Angela Greenfield Sep 9, 2010:
Ну вот, в мое отсутствие по мне проехались! Что удивительно, так это то, что Михаил меня без мягкого знака написал (правильно!). :-) А прозвище мое новое мне по душе. Немножко звучит как черепаха...
Michael Korovkin Sep 9, 2010:
Korovkin is not my nickname: it's my real surname! И вообще отстаньте, ползучие! Гринфилдихе, вон ,уже похлопали по..., молодец, мол, возьми с полки пирожок.
Но я все-таки это читаю так: хорек накопил демеритс “за разврат, за пъянку, за дебош“/и воще его тепрь снимают, потому что он на Берию похож“.
Alex Marshall Sep 9, 2010:
This is so much fun, guys. I'm pretty new to this site. Any chance there is a contest for the wackiest proz.com nickname? Don't know about you, but I'm busting my gut here.
e-solutions (X) Sep 9, 2010:
he is not in charge of negligence :)), Michael -- he is charged with negligence
Michael Korovkin Sep 9, 2010:
in Russian, as well as in many other l's "responsible for" may mean both "in charge of" and "guilty of"

In your context it's the latter, for it's hardly plausible to be “in chage of negligence"...

You've gotta hand it to me too!
Judith Hehir (asker) Sep 9, 2010:
You know what I failed to mention? Each of the items in the list that follows is introduced by the preposition за.
Judith Hehir (asker) Sep 9, 2010:
Michael, You so spice up a discussion. I have to hand it to you for that!
Michael Korovkin Sep 9, 2010:
I'm a professional-level chef I do all the shopping and all the cooking, including breakfasts and baby chow.
But washing dishes, you'right: lousy. Cleaning up – worse! Those are my demerits, I's'ppose. Nobody's poifect, but I come very close, minus the pot belly!
Angela Greenfield Sep 9, 2010:
Yes, please... Go wash some dishes, Michael! :-) I can only imagine how you do it!
Michael Korovkin Sep 9, 2010:
I reiterate, Angela I am convinced that it's not RESPONSIBILITY that's at issue here, but the faults. In a sense that t'ain't matter who paid and how, but a compendium of accummulated misdeeds. Okay, I'll do a Jewish mother too: well maybe I'm wrong... sure-sure, you all are so clever here that I better go where I belong and wash some disheeees... :)))
Angela Greenfield Sep 9, 2010:
Ну вот! Конечно же! Материальную-то я и упустила. Это, кстати, тоже является незаконным в США. Не может работодатель на тебя наложить финансовую санкцию без решения суда (напр., за нанесение материального ущерба компании), но это же не означает, что мы это должны в переводе писать "damages", чтобы американскому читателю легче было понять. Я потому написала, что задачей переводчика (особенно юридического) не является разжевывание оригинала и адаптация его для более удобного понимания целевой аудиторией, т.к. юридические реалии не всегда можно перевести. Вот вчера, например, я переводила в суде и вижу, что человек меня совсем не понимает, но не потому, что я неверно перевожу, а потому, что реалий таких в русском суде нет. Но это не моя роль давать человеку юридическую справку, это роль его адвоката. Может быть, я не права...
Michael Korovkin Sep 9, 2010:
не, ребя, должОн втыкнУцца: Все вы правильно говорите, но здесь дело другое (ИМАО, естессьно): здесь вопрос стоит в смысле - в чем, гад, виноват; где и в чем обос...ся. Может он за это потом экономикли лаэбел, или ему простят, но уж в анкетку точно вкатят, и поставят галочку демерита (защищщаяю мой ответ! Ха, уот елс из нью?!:))
Dmitri Lyutenko Sep 9, 2010:
Анжела, очень хороший последний пост в дискуссии Очень часто в должностных обязанностях есть такой пункт:
Материальная ответственность, которая, в том числе, предполагает и финансовые санкции за то-то и то-то .... и прямую материальную ответственность (то есть, финансовую).
Judith Hehir (asker) Sep 9, 2010:
Yes Also check the massgov link I provided in my note(s) to answerer under Angela's suggestion.
Angela Greenfield Sep 9, 2010:
Disciplinary Liability Tatyana has raised an issue that there is no such thing as "disciplinary liability". Well, Tatyana, there is, though you may not meet it in the US. In Russia, as well as in the rest of the Soviet space, the corporation (business, organization, etc.) may actually PUNISH the employees. While it would be illegal in the US, it DOES exist in that part of the world. Look up the link I provided in my answer.
The Russian Law defines several types of liability: disciplinary, administrative, civil and criminal. Each one is distinct and different from another.
As to Disciplinary Action, I don't disagree. After all that was my first suggestion in this column, but the colleagues above including the asker wanted something that would be closer to the meaning of the original, therefore I had to abandon it and come up with something else.
Andrii Ishchenko Sep 8, 2010:
I'm for liability as well. Accountability has a bit different meaning.
Alex Marshall Sep 8, 2010:
Angela, That's very kind of you, but I forfeit. I merely expounded on what Judith suggested as a possible answer. Don't hesitate to post that answer. If only for the extent of your input, you deserve those points more.
Angela Greenfield Sep 8, 2010:
Alex, you were the first (after Judi) to propose this term. Can we collectively ask you to post it?
Marina Aidova Sep 8, 2010:
I am also for liabliity
PrivatePract (X) Sep 8, 2010:
Definitely "liability" in this context
Dmitri Lyutenko Sep 8, 2010:
I think liability is a good .... just what the doctor ordered ... )))
Or, maybe (!) financial liability.
Angela Greenfield Sep 8, 2010:
I am for "liability" then, since to my lay ear "accountability" sounds too weak. I believe that the reference to the Labor Code means that the infractions and violations are to be punished in accordance with the Labor Code. This way they don't have to actually spell the disciplinary actions out in the Job Description.
Judith Hehir (asker) Sep 8, 2010:
Thanks, Angela. Nothing is actually spelled out by way of consequences. There is repetition of the following clause in each case: — в пределах, установленных действующим трудовым законодательством Российской Федерации и Правилами Компании. To me, that sounds like accountability "for thus and so—within the bounds established by existing labor legislation..."
Angela Greenfield Sep 8, 2010:
Disciplinary Policy/Actions I would offer it as an answer, but need to know whether your list contains what follows after these violations are committed.
Alex Marshall Sep 8, 2010:
I vote for liability, since accountability essentially means acknowledgment and assumption of responsibility. Plus, there are such commonly used concepts as employee liability and employee liability insurance.
Judith Hehir (asker) Sep 8, 2010:
Thanks, Mark. Anyone else care to weigh in?
Mark Hamlen Sep 8, 2010:
I vote for Accountability I would use Accountability

Proposed translations

+2
3 hrs
Selected

Disciplinary Liability

The Russian Labor Code stipulations cover "Disciplinary Liability" only. Since, as you have mentioned, the document refers to Labor Code for appropriate actions, my assumption would be that we are talking about Disciplinary Liability.

Here's the relevant article of the Russian Labor Code: http://base.garant.ru/12125268/30/

And here's the definition of "Disciplinary Liability" as per the Soviet Code (the Code hasn't changed much since then): http://base.garant.ru/12125268/30/

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2010-09-08 20:58:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Liability, Disciplinary
in Soviet law, the liability of production and office workers for their violations of labor discipline. [...]
The Basic Principles of Labor Legislation, the labor codes of the Union republics, and the Standard Factory Rules define the general system of disciplinary liability for production and office workers. [...]

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2010-09-09 13:03:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Disciplinary Repercussions" is something the lawyers here receive when they violate the code of conduct. This could also work in the context, but the Russians definitely mean "liability".
Note from asker:
That makes very good sense and seems very clear. Thanks, Angela.
Yes, the folks in Massachusetts так говорят. http://www.mass.gov/obcbbo/supervis.htm
Peer comment(s):
agree Olga Cartlidge : That s right. There s also administrative liability, but that s different.
2 hrs
Thank you, Olga!
agree Alex Marshall : Well done!... I was born with it, so no. And my nickname comment wasn't directed at you, by any means. I'm surprised I'm the only one seeing this.
21 hrs
Many thanks, Alex! Is Marshall your nickname? :-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you, Angela."
7 hrs

disciplinary action

дисциплинарное взыскание, т.е.
согласна также с disciplinary liability, но в английском так не говорят.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Angela Greenfield : Татьяна, извините, но в колонке дискуссии это мы уже обсудили и, как минимум, три носителя языка решили, что disciplinary action им не подходит. Кроме этого, почему вы решили, что так не говорят?//Go to discussion column, please.
1 hr
Because there is 'liability', and there is 'disciplinary action', but there is no such thing as 'disciplinary liability'. it's the combination of 2 words that doesn't make sense. just say 'liability' then.
Something went wrong...
+2
14 hrs

Demerit (in context :))

...
Note from asker:
Thank you, Michael.
Peer comment(s):
agree Angela Greenfield : "Demerit System" - I like it, though it does have a bit of a "high-school" sound to it.
6 hrs
Thanks! Hah! Did you ever get any demerit points for traffic vios? Worse than high school, eh? Are you in Boston? Your Mayor was slapping traffic fines left, right, centre and Teaparty – to get money for the underpass!
agree Alex Marshall : That's for your nickname that really catches the eye. Couldn't help it --- sorry Michael. While I agree with your suggestion, this comment was not meant for you. Now I see what all the confusion was about.
10 hrs
Спасибочки
Something went wrong...
14 hrs

responsibilities

Должностные обязанности всегда 'responsibilities' or 'duties'.
1. The state, quality, or fact of being responsible.
2. Something for which one is responsible; a duty, obligation, or burden
Reference:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/responsibilities

Note from asker:
Thank you, Yuri.
Something went wrong...
+1
23 hrs

XYZ is charged with the following violations

I read all of your wonderful comments and just thought of something else
Note from asker:
Thank you, Tatyana.
Peer comment(s):
agree Alex Marshall : That's for your nickname that really catches the eye. Couldn't help it.
1 hr
Something went wrong...
23 hrs

charges are brought against XYZ for the following violations

and then goes a list of all violations he/she committed in the course of his employment. He/she is, therefore, charged with these offenses and will be punished according to what the Labor Code of RF says. Они вменяются ему в вину (он за них понесет ОТВЕТСТВЕННОСТЬ). That's it.
Something went wrong...
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