Jun 17, 2009 07:55
14 yrs ago
31 viewers *
Spanish term

solidariamente

Spanish to English Law/Patents Law (general) POA
'Facultades que pueden ejercer de forma solidaria hasta un límite de XX y de forma mancomunada, dos cualquiera de ellos, sin límite alguno (...)'
Before that, there is a long list of names. I understand that these people, individually, each one of them, may exercise certain powers, and jointly any two of them may exercise the same powers to no maximum amount.
Would you then translate 'solidariamente' here as 'severally'?

Discussion

Paul Stevens Jun 17, 2009:
In response to your query, Maria, I would say that I have never come across "solidariamente" as referring to "individually" and my feeling is that the idea behind the phrase which you quote is to highlight the fact that, between them, those people can exercise the powers up to the limit mentioned. In fact, "jointly" might be an alternative answer.

Proposed translations

-1
4 hrs
Selected

severally [in the name of the consortium]

I think that the common idea that solidariamente means "jointly and severally" is a bit of a myth. The best answer on the subject I have seen (and one that made me reconsider my own stance is this: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_portuguese/law_general/...

I realize it is En-Pt, but the Spanish and Portuguese legal traditions map neatly into each other in this matter (though not in others).

Before I say more, this links to a document that explains matters well in a situation similar to yours: http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/opg/ll_opg.nsf/vwFiles...$file/EG_appt_form_revised_2005.doc

Here is how to illustrate. Suppose you and I decide to collaborate on a project and either can act to further its purposes. You are an honest person, but I am a scoundrel.

As far as our power to act, we can say that our actions are solidárias insofar as the company is concerned. Whatever I do, it is presupposed that I have your authorization to act, and vice-versa. When I do something (say, defraud a poor widow) am not, however, acting jointly with you because you did not take part in the action. You could say that I am acting severally, if you are using formal legal register, or individually if you are speaking like a "normal" person. This is what happens in the case of the universities. Any one of them can act in the name of the others (to a limit, which they specified).

There may be contexts where one acts jointly and severally but I don't believe any of them would fit a partnership situation (concurring judicial opinions is what comes to mind).

Now that I have defrauded the poor widow is that the difference shows. Let's say that it is decided that we are jointly responsible (and jointly only, not jointly and severally). If we are jointly responsible, it is possible for a court to say that, in this case, you bear only 10% of the resposibility (because you were my partner, even if you did nothing wrong) and I bear 90%. The widow can only get 10% of her damages from you, even if I disappear.

If we were severally responsible, it would be hard to get even the 10% from you.

If we were jointly and severally responsible, then you would be in trouble because what that legal formula means is that the widow can recover the full amount of damages from either of us. If I disappear, you are responsible for the full 100% and your only recourse is to try to recover my share from me later. In fact, in a case of joint and several responsibility, the widow only needs to sue one of us and it is up to that party to bring others into the suit or try to recover later. Notice that joint and several liability does not eliminate the allocation of responsibility present in joint liability, but makes it a secondary concern as far as the interest of the victim is concerned. This is where responsabilidade solidaria comes in, as any one of the parties in such a case answers for the others. I am not sure if such a party can recover from the others if it only has responsabilidade solidaria, or if it also needs to be conjunta, but the point here is that solidaria is not the same as joint and several.





Peer comment(s):

disagree biggiebiggie : I think you misunderstand what "jointly and severally means". You write: "If we were severally responsible, it would be hard to get even the 10% from you". The opposite is true: "severally" means each is liable for 100%.
5158 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Really helpful explanation! Thanks"
+7
4 mins

jointly and severally

is what I would use.

HTH
Note from asker:
Thank you, Paul. Would you use 'jointly and severally' even when it may mean 'individualmente'?
Peer comment(s):

agree Margarita Ezquerra (Smart Translators, S.L.)
6 mins
Many thanks.
agree Ruth Ramsey
31 mins
Many thanks, Ruth
agree DaceM (X)
3 hrs
Many thanks.
agree Mónica Sauza
6 hrs
Many thanks.
agree neilmac : Didn't this come up recently?
10 hrs
Many thanks.
agree eski : Quite so. :))
18 hrs
Many thanks.
agree biggiebiggie
5159 days
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4 hrs

jointly

As I read the passage, I understand that two of the persons acting together (ie. jointly) can exercise certain transactions.

I do NOT see it as being BOTH joint (together) AND several (in one's individual capacity) as the emphasis here seems to be on the need for any two of them (together) to act.
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4 hrs

solidarily

In adverb form.

Solidary (adj.)
Having community of interests and responsibilities.

Men are solidary, or copartners; and not isolated. --M. Arnold.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

–adjective
characterized by or involving community of responsibilities and interests.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/solidary
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17 hrs

on solidarity basis

Check the hits (5.730 in many different contexts).
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Reference comments

13 hrs
Reference:

Just answered, and

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