Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Sep 18, 2008 09:07
15 yrs ago
3 viewers *
Italian term
volgare
Italian to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
history of Italian
la forma 'primordiale' dell'italiano (siamo nel '300). Is it just "vernacular"?
Grazie!
Grazie!
Proposed translations
(English)
4 | vulgate | Tom in London |
4 +4 | vernacular | Valentina Diani |
3 +3 | volgare | Milena Bosco (X) |
4 +1 | the "vulgar tongue" | lucinda byatt |
4 | Vulgar Latin | Paul O'Brien |
3 +1 | Late Vulgar Latin | manducci |
Proposed translations
5 mins
Selected
vulgate
not "vernacular" and certainly not "vulgar" since this was the colloquial Italian spoken and written by men like Guido Cavalcanti, Cino da Pistoia, Dante Alighieri.....
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Note added at 7 mins (2008-09-18 09:14:40 GMT)
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if you don't like "vulgate" (although that is the usual term) you might try "colloquial" (but that's not nearly as good)
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Note added at 7 mins (2008-09-18 09:14:40 GMT)
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if you don't like "vulgate" (although that is the usual term) you might try "colloquial" (but that's not nearly as good)
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Paul O'Brien
: vulgate is more or less identical with vernacular, so you can't say "not vernacular". in any case, neither was a primordial form of italian, but virtually italian as we know it. dante wrote in florentine vernacular./untrue.
18 mins
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The historical form (as requested by the asker) is "vulgate". "Vernacular" is what we are all writing, at this very moment. It isn't historicised, so saying "vernacular" could be very misleading.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "checked with client. vulgate is the word. Thanks"
+4
1 min
vernacular
in volgare = in the vernacular
Garzanti Hazon
Garzanti Hazon
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Marika Costantini
: sì, l'ho trovato anch'io così
9 mins
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neutral |
Paul O'Brien
: = vernacolare = locally spoken language. dante's language wasn't a primordial form of italian, but virtually italian as we know it, which grew out of vulgar latin.
18 mins
|
agree |
Tom in London
: vulgate. The vernacular is spoken today. Vulgate isn't. We're talking the '300 here.
26 mins
|
agree |
awilliams
: vernacular.//@ Pauley (sorry, have run out of characters!), I interpret "forma primordiale" as "basic form of", "early form of". "Vulgar Latin" would be "latino volgare", in any case. This is the "volgare italiano".
52 mins
|
agree |
lucinda byatt
: see explanation below on the "vulgar tongue"
2 hrs
|
10 mins
Vulgar Latin
http://dizionari.corriere.it/dizionario_inglese/Italiano/V/v...
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Note added at 14 mins (2008-09-18 09:21:17 GMT)
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Vulgar Latin (in Latin, sermo vulgaris, "folk speech") is a blanket term covering the popular dialects and sociolects of the Latin language which diverged from each other in the early Middle Ages, evolving into the Romance languages by the 9th century.
Vulgar Latin developed differently in the various provinces of the Roman Empire, gradually giving rise to such languages as French, Catalan, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian and several dozen other languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin
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Note added at 14 mins (2008-09-18 09:21:17 GMT)
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Vulgar Latin (in Latin, sermo vulgaris, "folk speech") is a blanket term covering the popular dialects and sociolects of the Latin language which diverged from each other in the early Middle Ages, evolving into the Romance languages by the 9th century.
Vulgar Latin developed differently in the various provinces of the Roman Empire, gradually giving rise to such languages as French, Catalan, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian and several dozen other languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
awilliams
: but we're in the 1300s here - vulgar latin is much earlier//the vernacular as used by Dante and others was the precursor of Italian as we know it - I reckon this is what the author means. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_volgare
44 mins
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yes, but it is what the florentine vernacular (and subsequently italian) grew out of. the asker wants the primordial form, which was vulgar latin. non sono d'accordo, perché seconda questa logica il volgare "finisce", mentre per gli storici esso "evolve".
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+1
2 hrs
the "vulgar tongue"
You could refer to 14th century Italian as "vulgar" (I would use quotes!) in reference to Dante's "De vulgari eloquentia" which is usually translated in English as a "Treatise on the Vulgar Tongue".
It has nothing to do with the modern conotation of vulgar, but comes from vulgus meaning the people, the rabble, the multitude.
Your choice of term depends on the register of the translation - I would think that verncular would be a better choice for a lower register, "vulgar" for a higher one. At the time, vernacular was used to describe the opposite of Latin, i.e. the vulgaris.
It has nothing to do with the modern conotation of vulgar, but comes from vulgus meaning the people, the rabble, the multitude.
Your choice of term depends on the register of the translation - I would think that verncular would be a better choice for a lower register, "vulgar" for a higher one. At the time, vernacular was used to describe the opposite of Latin, i.e. the vulgaris.
+3
3 hrs
volgare
"....humanists did write some works in the volgare, but the largest part of their output was in Latin."
from http://www.idehist.uu.se/distans/ilmh/Ren/ren-pet-mclaughlin...
"...The language of Dante: from the discovery of the "volgare" as a literary language to the many styles of Comedy: the Vita Nuova , the first book of the Convivio and the De vulgari eloquentia"
from http://www.unive.it/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=34622&istanza=4080002...
I would leave it untranslated. It is not a "vernacular" it indicates a specific language, which was "purified" by Dante in his works.
Have a nice day,
Milena
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Note added at 3 hrs (2008-09-18 12:56:33 GMT)
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The "volgare illustre" was the first attempt to standardise the italian language, attempt that was not very succesful at the time. Dante's "Divina Commedia" was actually mistreated by popular story tellers who made "translations" of the text in the spoken "volgare".
In any case I would leave it untranslated, because I think that it indicates a specific language between Latin and Italian.
Have a nice day,
Milena
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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-09-18 13:20:34 GMT)
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I read "illustre" in Dante's works. He called the "volgare" he used himself "illustre" because it was a "skimmed" language if compared to the "volgare" spoken by people at the time.
We often refer to the "literary" volgare (Dante, Petrarca etc.) not making the difference between the written language and the spoken language at the time.
Again, have a nice day,
Milena
from http://www.idehist.uu.se/distans/ilmh/Ren/ren-pet-mclaughlin...
"...The language of Dante: from the discovery of the "volgare" as a literary language to the many styles of Comedy: the Vita Nuova , the first book of the Convivio and the De vulgari eloquentia"
from http://www.unive.it/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=34622&istanza=4080002...
I would leave it untranslated. It is not a "vernacular" it indicates a specific language, which was "purified" by Dante in his works.
Have a nice day,
Milena
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Note added at 3 hrs (2008-09-18 12:56:33 GMT)
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The "volgare illustre" was the first attempt to standardise the italian language, attempt that was not very succesful at the time. Dante's "Divina Commedia" was actually mistreated by popular story tellers who made "translations" of the text in the spoken "volgare".
In any case I would leave it untranslated, because I think that it indicates a specific language between Latin and Italian.
Have a nice day,
Milena
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Note added at 4 hrs (2008-09-18 13:20:34 GMT)
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I read "illustre" in Dante's works. He called the "volgare" he used himself "illustre" because it was a "skimmed" language if compared to the "volgare" spoken by people at the time.
We often refer to the "literary" volgare (Dante, Petrarca etc.) not making the difference between the written language and the spoken language at the time.
Again, have a nice day,
Milena
Peer comment(s):
agree |
awilliams
: yes, why not just use "volgare". But I disagree with your last sentence. It is the "vernacular". In your first ref "volgare" is used interchangeably with "vernacular"//where do you see "illustre"?
20 mins
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Hi Amy. The language spoken at the time by people in the area now called Italy, is vernacular (actually tens of different "volgari"). The language chosen by writers (the start of the Italian language) is often called "volgare illustre", new note :)
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agree |
Alessandra Renna
6 hrs
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agree |
Umberto Cassano
1 day 5 hrs
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+1
7 hrs
Late Vulgar Latin
As your question refers to 'la forma primordiale del'italiano' - therefore the origins of the language, 'Vulgar latin' would be the correct term - 'vernacular' is a more general term (see last part of wikipedia entry below) However, as 'Vulgar Latin' is also a bit of a blanket term and some scholars prefer to avoid its use altogether for that very reason (see google book link) perhaps you could compromise by using ther term "Late Vulgar Latin' which is more specific??
'vulgar Latin', as the following wikipedia entry states, refers specifically to the language current between 200-900 (a point Amy makes):
"Vulgar Latin (in Latin, sermo vulgaris, "folk speech") is a blanket term covering the popular dialects and sociolects of the Latin language which diverged from each other in the early Middle Ages, evolving into the Romance languages by the 9th century. The terms Vulgar Latin and Late Latin are often used synonymously. Vulgar Latin can also refer to vernacular speech from other periods, including the Classical period, in which case it may also be called Popular Latin"
Vulgar Latin 200 – 900 (source wikipedia)
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Latin-2145/2008/6/Italian-Vulgar-...
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Note added at 23 hrs (2008-09-19 08:26:20 GMT)
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Sorry, piece of second citation missing: the full sentence reads: "Over time Italian became gradually distinguished from Latin, as the language of the lower classes as distinguished from the upper classes, but even as late as the end of the first millennium, it is hard to tell whether a text is late vulgar Latin or early Italian, as we now call it. By Dante circa 1300 one can see a definite difference.
'vulgar Latin', as the following wikipedia entry states, refers specifically to the language current between 200-900 (a point Amy makes):
"Vulgar Latin (in Latin, sermo vulgaris, "folk speech") is a blanket term covering the popular dialects and sociolects of the Latin language which diverged from each other in the early Middle Ages, evolving into the Romance languages by the 9th century. The terms Vulgar Latin and Late Latin are often used synonymously. Vulgar Latin can also refer to vernacular speech from other periods, including the Classical period, in which case it may also be called Popular Latin"
Vulgar Latin 200 – 900 (source wikipedia)
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Latin-2145/2008/6/Italian-Vulgar-...
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Note added at 23 hrs (2008-09-19 08:26:20 GMT)
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Sorry, piece of second citation missing: the full sentence reads: "Over time Italian became gradually distinguished from Latin, as the language of the lower classes as distinguished from the upper classes, but even as late as the end of the first millennium, it is hard to tell whether a text is late vulgar Latin or early Italian, as we now call it. By Dante circa 1300 one can see a definite difference.
Example sentence:
adjectives, possessives, and nouns in apposition), seem to have undergone several unspectacular but basic changes in Late Vulgar Latin
to tell whether a text is late vulgar Latin or early Italian, as we now call it.
Reference:
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