| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4] > | post-editing of machine translations - Are there any real time savings? Thread poster: Thomas Johansson
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Hello,
During the last few years, machine translations have become better, and an increasing number of jobs are being offered as "post-editing" of machine translations, usually with a discount of approximately 30% on the usual translation rate.
I wonder: Do the rest of you notice any overall time savings for such projects in comparison with regular translations? I mean, does post-editing of a certain volume take less time than a regular translation would?
A... See more Hello,
During the last few years, machine translations have become better, and an increasing number of jobs are being offered as "post-editing" of machine translations, usually with a discount of approximately 30% on the usual translation rate.
I wonder: Do the rest of you notice any overall time savings for such projects in comparison with regular translations? I mean, does post-editing of a certain volume take less time than a regular translation would?
As for me, over the last 2-3 years or so, I've been taking on many such post-editing projects from a translation agency, usually for EU documents from the European Parliament or the European Commission. But I have become increasingly concerned about the 30% discount and have almost become convinced that there are no real time savings. In short, my feeling is that while these projects pay 30% less than a regular translation, they actually do not save time.
Am I wrong? I don't know what to think at this moment.
It would be really nice to hear the thoughts from others with experience from these sorts of projects (post-editing of machine translations).
It's an important issue, since the new machine translation technology is an important technology that probably will take over more and more of our industry - but if the time savings are an illusion, then there is no justification for applying or giving discounts.
Please share your thoughts.
Thank you.
[Edited at 2022-05-18 22:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mr. Satan (X)
English to Indonesian
| Not in my line of work | May 18, 2022 |
@Jan Truper already mentioned about this in a recent thread. In his post, he explained how MTs are still unable to differentiate between the singular, plural, formal, and informal forms of the pronoun “you” in German. Well we have that in Indonesian too, except it’s a little spicier. Asid... See more @Jan Truper already mentioned about this in a recent thread. In his post, he explained how MTs are still unable to differentiate between the singular, plural, formal, and informal forms of the pronoun “you” in German. Well we have that in Indonesian too, except it’s a little spicier. Aside from the same features found in the German language for the pronoun "you", the Indonesian language also has the formal and informal forms of the pronoun “I”, and the inclusive and exclusive forms of the pronoun “we”.
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Instead of saving time, MTs are just making my jobs to be more complicated than they need to. Translators are being offered MTPE jobs simply because some agencies and clients just want a quick translation for cheap, really.
[Edited at 2022-05-18 11:20 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | William Bowley
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:37
Spanish to English
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| Expectations | May 18, 2022 |
Hi Thomas,
Well there are a number of factors in play here. For me it's largely a case of the quality of the MT/TM and how realistic the expectations of the agency are.
For relatively simple, common files with repetitive language, assuming the MT and TM are of reasonable quality, then from my experience there are some time savings which translate into a higher effective hourly rate. For work such as scientific articles or legal files, however, MTPE remains largely unsui... See more Hi Thomas,
Well there are a number of factors in play here. For me it's largely a case of the quality of the MT/TM and how realistic the expectations of the agency are.
For relatively simple, common files with repetitive language, assuming the MT and TM are of reasonable quality, then from my experience there are some time savings which translate into a higher effective hourly rate. For work such as scientific articles or legal files, however, MTPE remains largely unsuitable.
The main issue that some agencies fail to recognise is that in theory, the use of MTPE is to create a correct, acceptable translation easier and faster than translating manually. Agencies will even state that their MTPE process involves necessary, objective changes, so therefore, if the MT requires extensive reworking and retranslating then it isn't a true MTPE job but rather an agency expecting a manual translation at MTPE rates. If you aren't seeing any time savings at all then that might be the issue.
Many agencies use MTPE simply to pay lower rates, without realising or accepting the limitations.
"Only" 30% lower rates are quite rare, though!
[Edited at 2022-05-18 12:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Not for professional work | May 18, 2022 |
In my experience, editing an MT output to meet my quality standards takes me longer than translating the same text from scratch. So, no time savings whatsoever for me.
On the other hand, I've seen a few portfolios of ardent MT evangelists, some of whom are currently active here on ProZ. I won't disclose the names, but sorry, guys, your idea of quality is seriously deficient.
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 18:37
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
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| Some thoughts | May 18, 2022 |
Thomas Johansson wrote:
I wonder: Do the rest of you notice any overall time savings for such projects in comparison with regular translations? I mean, does post-editing of a certain volume take less time than a regular translation would?
I've experienced some serious time savings (manual translation speed from 350 to 500 words/hour versus MT post-editing from 600 to 900 words/hour). Please note these figures are the extremes. I'm mostly somewhere in the middle of them. Of course I'm speaking of quality translations. Like there are bad translators who just try to translate and earn as much money as possible without an eye for quality, there are bad MT post-editors who do exactly the same (i.e. post-edit as little as possible). But even with an eye for quality I can definitely say MT can help to increase the translation speed.
Thomas Johansson wrote:
As for me, over the last 2-3 years or so, I've been taking on many such post-editing projects from a translation agency, usually for EU documents from the European Parliament or the European Commission. But I have become increasingly concerned about the 30% discount and have almost become convinced that there are no real time savings. In short, my feeling is that while these projects pay 30% less than a regular translation, they actually do not save time.
I know the documents you are talking about can be tough. Perhaps they are not really suitable for MTPE?
Thomas Johansson wrote:
It would be really nice to hear the thoughts from others with experience from these sorts of projects (post-editing of machine translations).
Do you use a CAT tool in which you integrate the machine translation to be edited? That's absolutely necessary to be able to do the job in a profitable way.
Apparently there are also quite big differences between language pairs. Perhaps your language pairs are less suitable ?
| | | | Stepan Konev 
Russian Federation
Local time: 19:37
English to Russian
| It depends on your skills | May 18, 2022 |
If you can use the tool, it works for you well. If you can't, it doesn't.
Many translators complained that CAT tools drastically slow them down when their employers forced them to use such tools. Nowadays, they can't live without their favorite CAT tools. The same applies to MT. If you are not trained enough to use it, it will be useless to you. Actually it works for any tool in general, not only those for translation.
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 19:37
English to Russian
Thomas Johansson wrote:
It's an important issue, since the new machine translation technology is an important technology that probably will take over more and more of our industry - but if the time savings are an illusion, then there is no justification for applying or giving discounts. I have just machine-translated a paragraph from your message. Here it goes:
Это важный вопрос, поскольку новая технология машинного перевода является важной технологией, которая, вероятно, будет захватывать все большую часть нашей отрасли, но если экономия времени является иллюзией, то нет никаких оснований для применения или предоставления скидок.
It only requires minor edits. Even punctuation (which is very complicated in Russian) marks are used correctly here in this translation. For a professional translator it takes seconds to make it read well:
Это важный вопрос, поскольку новые технологии машинного перевода — это серьезные технологии, которые, вероятно, будут захватывать все большую часть нашей отрасли. Но если экономия времени — иллюзия, то и никаких оснований для применения или предоставления скидок нет.
[Edited at 2022-05-18 15:08 GMT]
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 12:37
Spanish to English
+ ...
| No savings in terms of time or effort, but less typing and sometimes provides interesting options | May 18, 2022 |
I've found that I really don't save so much time that a discount is warranted (the more technical and more legal the document, the more time I have to spend with terminology research, etc.). More importantly, the "mental energy/effort" required is still about the same.
However, I have found that I have to type less and my wrists do not hurt me as much (used to have bad carpal tunnel) and sometimes MT will give me an option for the translation of a word or phrase that I might not ha... See more I've found that I really don't save so much time that a discount is warranted (the more technical and more legal the document, the more time I have to spend with terminology research, etc.). More importantly, the "mental energy/effort" required is still about the same.
However, I have found that I have to type less and my wrists do not hurt me as much (used to have bad carpal tunnel) and sometimes MT will give me an option for the translation of a word or phrase that I might not have otherwise come up with on my own.
As this article states "it helps with all the easy bits, but you still have to do all the "hard" stuff. The "easier" the translation for a human, the better the MT will be and vice-versa: https://www.languagecrawler.com/2021/04/a-state-of-flux-difficult-and.html ▲ Collapse
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Jo Macdonald
Spain
Local time: 18:37
Italian to English
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| Depends what you use it for | May 18, 2022 |
The simpler the source text, the less work the MT will need.
In most professional work with specific terminology it will not save time.
It'll take the same time, or longer, to sort out the MT, change terms, switch things around so they're not literally clunky, and rewrite so it doesn't just "look" right. Most of the time it's better to do it yourself.
In some very simple jobs it can save a lot of time.
For an immediate lol rendition of blog posts in a varie... See more The simpler the source text, the less work the MT will need.
In most professional work with specific terminology it will not save time.
It'll take the same time, or longer, to sort out the MT, change terms, switch things around so they're not literally clunky, and rewrite so it doesn't just "look" right. Most of the time it's better to do it yourself.
In some very simple jobs it can save a lot of time.
For an immediate lol rendition of blog posts in a variety of languages, it's great.
I've trained neural engines, done courses, post edit MT in Memsource for one client, and even studied how to write content so MT has an easier time with it and translates terms more consistently. At the end of the day, sometimes it can be OK for simple stuff, most of the time it's a waste of time.
Basically the simpler (easier to understand) you write the source text, the better the MT will be.
My advice would be to quote on a "per project" basis after you've seen it.
Always accepting a 30% discount for PEMT jobs can mean selling yourself cheap. The job may take longer (or perhaps half the time) depending on the complexity of the source text, terminology, the MT engine used and how it's used.
Watch out for people selling lotsa cheap PEMT, asking you to give it just a quick read, make only minor changes, what some call light-PEMT. They're really asking you to sign off (legally) for the job that hasn't been done to what I'd call an acceptable standard.
A LOT of literal MT is finding its way into content online, so you need to be careful about trusting references found online.
[Edited at 2022-05-18 16:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Not all tools are good for professionals, and not all users of a given tool are professionals | May 18, 2022 |
Stepan Konev wrote:
If you can use the tool, it works for you well. If you can't, it doesn't.
Many translators complained that CAT tools drastically slow them down when their employers forced them to use such tools. Nowadays, they can't live without their favorite CAT tools. The same applies to MT. If you are not trained enough to use it, it will be useless to you. Actually it works for any tool in general, not only those for translation.
Stepan, I was hoping you would get my hint above. Do you want me to publicly analyse the quality of your portfolio?
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 19:37
English to Russian
| @Anton Konashenok | May 18, 2022 |
Anton Konashenok wrote:
Stepan, I was hoping you would get my hint above. Do you want me to publicly analyse the quality of your portfolio? I have only two pieces of sample translation in my portfolio that I added a dozen years ago. At that time I did not use any MT at all. And I can see my mistakes too. If I relied on my profile that much, I would have already changed the samples. It would be much more convincing to me if you offer your translation for the same paragraph as I quoted above. I want to see your professional translation. Please.
What regards my quality, I prefer to rely on my clients' feedback:
... As you are aware, one of our client's (.....) headquarters is located in the USA (the company also born in the US), and the collaboration with Russian-located linguists is forbidden for an indefinite term.
This is not an arbitrary decision to refer to quality or performance, which has been more than excellent from the start, the feedback from ......, end Russian clients and partners was flawless.
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 19:37
English to Russian
| Analyze if can't translate | May 18, 2022 |
Stepan Konev wrote:
It would be much more convincing to me if you offer your translation for the same paragraph as I quoted above. I want to see your professional translation. Please. But if you can't translate, then ok, feel free to analyze my portfolio.
*By the way, why can't I see your portfolio?
[Edited at 2022-05-18 17:48 GMT]
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Stepan Konev wrote:
It would be much more convincing to me if you offer your translation for the same paragraph as I quoted above. I want to see your professional translation. Please.
You are only confirming my point about the attitude to quality. Do you seriously think that rewriting one single phrase of very simple text (like the vast majority of forum postings) is telling anything at all about translation quality? Let's take a few paragraphs of serious engineering text (not to be confused with marketing in the technical area).
Why can't I see your portfolio?
Because I work in highly specialised subjects, where translation portfolios are of little use, but I'll be happy to show some translation examples once we find a referee.
[Edited at 2022-05-18 17:59 GMT]
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 19:37
English to Russian
Anton Konashenok wrote: You are only confirming my point about the attitude to quality. Do you seriously think that rewriting one single phrase of very simple text (like the vast majority of forum postings) is telling anything at all about translation quality? Let's take a few paragraphs of serious engineering text (not to be confused with marketing in the technical area). Why can't I see your portfolio? Because I work in highly specialised subjects, where portfolios are of little use, but I'll be happy to show some examples once we find a referee.
I wonder how you planned to analyze my portfolio then — there is no "serious engineering text" there, but only marketing in the technical area. Still thank you for reminding me of my portfolio. I have to refresh it indeed. I found the date of that translation, it was 2008. Thank you.
[Edited at 2022-05-18 17:59 GMT]
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Stepan Konev wrote:
I wonder how you planned to analyze my portfolio then — there is no "serious engineering text" there, but only marketing in the technical area.
Because even there, you managed to make such mistakes as swapping topic and comment in a phrase (first sentence about BMW X6), or confusing the literal and figurative meaning of a word ("dimensions"), or combining words that don't go together ("экономичный расход").
P.S. OK, if these pieces are 14 years old, I can't judge you for that and sincerely apologize for being so harsh. But please, for heaven's sake, remove them lest a potential quality-conscious client see them.
[Edited at 2022-05-18 18:18 GMT]
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