This site uses cookies.
Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site,
while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used.
For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
When using it as a resource, make sure you refer not to offices as duties (part in the 1st tab that talks about charges de la maison du roi, six grands offices de la couronne, etc.), but as parts of a building; that's the second tab (subst. fém.) where you find examples, among which offices bien garnies. Le Grand Robert defines office like this: Pièce, ordinairement attenante à la cuisine, où se prépare le service de la table and also quotes Racine's Les Plaideurs: Il me redemandait sans cesse ses épices ; Et j'ai tout bonnement couru dans les offices Chercher la boîte au poivre
Interesting info about the use of "court of offices". Common terms almost always have common roots, but do not always follow the same routes. ;-) They do not alwyas have the same destination. From what the CNRTL has to say on the subject, I think the reference to the "sept offices de bouche du roi" is particularly interesting. Even Wikipedia has a couple of words to say on the subject. See additional note to post for the terms "office/officiers" generally in the wider context, but still royal.
We do need to be careful here, because there is a "cour des offices" at Fontainebleau, *as well as* the "cour du Cheval Blanc" (see the map on this page)...
The Cour des Offices Built under Henri IV in the early 17th century, the Office Courtyard was mainly used for domestic purposes, and was used by the staff of the palace (kitchens) and the officers (residences). It served as the entrance from the city.
The image description says (about the same location):
"Malgré sa destination première de basse-cour, ou cour des Offices, la cour du Cheval blanc s'affirma très vite comme l'un des espaces majeurs du château."
So they have used "basse-cour" here, which means where chickens and small animals are kept?
Could we keep it vague and say that it was a functional or working courtyard?
It's about time, as far as I'm concerned, that the Joe and Josephine Publics of the world got some real education instead of just going along with/down the lazy dumb em' down route! So I say keep it in French (sent from the keyboard of a former French teacher/tutor)!
Inveraray Castle, Ardlamont House, Castle Newe, Castle Fraser, and even the Mains of Dunnottar all have a 'court of offices'. They are definitely not associated with the kitchens. In each case, the court of offices refers to the stables or stable blocks. (In the case of Ardlamont House and Tulliallan Castle, they also contain a dovecote.) Each one is too far from the house to be related to the kitchens. You can find them in Scotland in some of the larger farms too. Until now, I didn't realise that there is one at Edenwood house in Fife (just up the road), again it's for the horses and is a few hundred metres from the main house at the 'home farm'. The description of the one at Carronhall states, "The court of offices contains stables, coach-houses, byre, washing-house, and many other conveniences". The one at Milton Lockhart is, again, part of the stables, 200m from the main dwelling. http://canmore-pdf.rcahms.gov.uk/wp/00/WP004777.pdf This one at Inveraray is typical - https://www.architecture.com/image-library/ribapix/gallery-p...
ph-b (X)
France
"not how we would use the term 'offices' today"
18:30 Mar 15, 2021
True, and the same applies to modern French, especially the plural form, yet the term is used at Fontainebleau and elsewhere too (e.g. https://www.inrap.fr/nouvelle-campagne-de-fouille-au-chateau... Art/architecture history context, probably. Incidentally, I wonder whether it's the same with Galleria degli Uffizi in Florence. A court of offices that was eventually turned into a museum? As for "court of offices" in English, different examples on the Net (different from mine above) show that the term is used with the same meaning of "service (court)courtyard". Cf. Vanessa's post. If enough relevant examples in a similar context are found, I would translate as "court of offices", which will be neither more nor less familiar to today's English reader than cour des offices to a French reader.
Ph-b Both the Scottish references refer to facilities at or in the gatehouses of the properties. I don't think they would have served the same purposes as a 'cour des offices' associated with the kitchens and its staff in France. If you look at the aerial view on page 6 of Castle Toward, you wouldn't be preparing food at this 'court of offices' as you would have to carry them all outdoors, through the woodland to the castle. Also, the kitchen gardens are at the opposite end of the castle grounds.
I must admit, though, that I've never heard of offices in this context in English, but it does seem to be an old usage for laundry, kitchen, storage area etc. going by your dictionary entry. My only reservation is that this is not how we would use the term 'offices' today and this may cause confusion.
ph-b (X)
France
offices
17:53 Mar 15, 2021
offices plural, chiefly British : the apartments, attached buildings, or outhouses in which the activities attached to the service of a house are carried on (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/office)
"La Cour Ovale de François Ier (1494-1547), construite sur le site médiéval, était le cœur du Château. Henri IV (1553-1610) décida de la faire précéder d’une avant-cour pour abriter ses cuisines, d’où l’appellation de Cour des Offices."
From Larousse, "Office - Local attenant à la cuisine et/ou à la salle à manger, dans lequel on prépare le service de la table."
If you use the search function to search inside this book for 'offices' you will see that it always refers to the 'offices' as places where food is readied for service, prepared or stored. (Au service du château - L’architecture des communs en Île-de-France au XVIIIe siècle Christophe Morin) https://books.openedition.org/psorbonne/540?lang=en
The first chapter 'Le service de la bouche' states, "Les fonctions de l’office se répartissent autour de deux catégories principales. Il peut tout d’abord être assimilé à la cuisine puisqu’il est destiné à la confection des desserts, confitures et sucreries, et d’autre part, il se compose d’espaces de rangement pour la vaisselle et l’argenterie." and "La cuisine, libérée de ces activités annexes, est désormais réservée à l’élaboration des plats et plus spécifiquement aux préparations salissantes, grasses, par opposition à l’office qui accueille des activités plus délicates, dans une atmosphère sèche. " https://books.openedition.org/psorbonne/548
Barbara Cochran, MFA United States Local time: 03:52 Meets criteria Native speaker of: English
13 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): -1
a courtyard surrounded by offices
Explanation: The courtyard, no longer being enclosed, now becomes a courtyard of honour after having been surrounded by offices until then.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 21 hrs (2021-03-16 08:54:27 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Le Château de Fontainebleu est un des châteaux français plus grand et royal. Le château mediéval était une résidence pour des rois, au passé, qui avaient une influence forte sur Paris dès leur château. Après, le château est devenu un musée natitonal avec du patronage. Au château il y a une cour oval et orthodoxe, un vestige (une trace ou une très petite quantité) du château original du roi, où ses appartements étaient trouvés au centre. Aux offices ils peuvent travailler pour organiser la livraison, l'entreposage et le rangement de la gestion des alimentaires. Aussi, les musées ont des offices en soi pour les fins administratifs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Fontainebleau
(Fontainbleau Castle is one of the largest royal French castles. The medieval castle was a king's place of residence, in the past, from where there was a strong influence over Paris. Afterwards, the castle became a museum with national heritage. At the castle there's an oval and orthodox (traditional) courtyard, a trace of the original king's castle, where his apartments were found at the centre. Offices can work to organize the delivery, storage and arrangement of food. Also, museums have offices for administrative purposes.)
Example sentence(s):
'La cour, n'étant plus enfermée, elle devient alors une cour d'honneur après avoir été encerclée des offices jusqu'alors.'
Lisa Rosengard United Kingdom Local time: 08:52 Meets criteria Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 2
Service courtyard, pantry courtyard, kitchen service courtyard
Explanation: This is not always transacted. If your context needs folk to locate it, then the source text will probably need to appear somewhere. However, here are sources explaining what it is.
From the CNRTL source, you can see it relates to food (storage, management, preparation, etc). "HIST. DE FRANCE. [Sous l'Ancien Régime] α) Charge de la maison du roi. Les sept offices de la bouche du roi: 3. ... la distinction entre grands officiers de la maison du roi et grands officiers de la couronne n'était pas toujours aisée à établir, depuis que les offices de la maison du roi étant de fait permanents n'apparaissaient plus comme différents des grands offices de la couronne, doués de pérennité comme la couronne elle-même. MarionInstit.1923, pp.407-408."
Note the "sept offices de bouche du roi".
From this second source, for "office" many if the the 55 hits will enable you to see how that might work within the context of a château. You will also find hits for "cour des offices". https://books.openedition.org/psorbonne/548?lang=fr
Last but not least, the GDT suggests "pantry" which might be a slight undertranslation in the context of royalty.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2021-03-16 15:18:15 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
*"Transacted"?? Should read "translated".
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2021-03-16 15:26:46 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
"Les grands officiers de la maison du roi de France sont les responsables des principaux départements de la maison du roi de France.
Tous les officiers de la maison du roi sont sous la juridiction du grand maître de France (un des grands offices de la couronne), qui est le chef de la maison du roi. Ces grands offices n'ont souvent qu'un rôle cérémoniel."
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2021-03-16 15:29:07 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Adn you don't need to be a genius to see "pantry" from "panetier" and "panier" etc. and "pain", etc., etc., etc.!
"able du roi Le premier maître d'hôtel du roi assure la direction des sept offices de la table du roi. Le service de la bouche du roi est composé :
du premier panetier de France, qui assure l'approvisionnement en pain de la table du roi du premier échanson de France, qui assure l'approvisionnement en vin du premier écuyer tranchant, qui coupe la viande du roi."
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Local time: 09:52 Meets criteria Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 7
