whilesome

English translation: late

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

English term or phrase:	whilesome
Selected answer:	late
Entered by:	Yvonne Gallagher

11:11 Aug 4, 2017

English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Art/Literary - History / 17th century English document

English term or phrase: whilesome

I am translating into French some quotes from the Hartlib papers (date 1648), UK, where I have come across the word "whilesome" - I have checked and it is whilesome, not anything else!
I have consulted Johnson's dictionary and find "whilom", which means "formerly, once, of old", but not whilesome; I wondered if "whilesome" might be a version of "whilom". Can anyone help?
Here is the sentence in which it appears:
"My whilesome Father who had no help but from experience and his own nature, yet of an unspotted judgment hath heretofore told me, that he much desired to bring in this custome...." (the custom in question being the setting up of a commercial exchange)
The problem with my hypothesis (whilesome = whilom) is the place of the word, plus the fact that later in the sentence there is the word heretofore.
Could it possibly mean; "Long ago, my father, whose only qualifications were his experience and his own nature....... told me, once...."
I'd be grateful for any help!
TIA

katsy KudoZ activity Questions: 24 (none open) Answers: 1159
Local time: 07:19

late

Explanation:
I'll go with "late" as I think it's most likely for "whilom" (can't find whilesome" refs.)

see discussion

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/whilom

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Note added at 45 mins (2017-08-04 11:57:37 GMT)
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https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whilom

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Note added at 1 hr (2017-08-04 12:41:22 GMT)
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Katsy (and Edith) you could say and yes, I've heard it said: " my erstwhile colleagues/companions/friends" = my ex or former friends etc. BUT you really can't say "my former father"! It's a nonsense.

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Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2017-08-05 17:23:18 GMT) Post-grading
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Glad to have helped. Interesting word(s)!

Selected response from:

Yvonne Gallagher
Ireland
Local time: 06:19

Grading comment

Thank you Gallagy!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED

3 +3

late

Yvonne Gallagher

earstwhile

Edith Kelly

Discussion entries: 16

katsy

ASKER

thanks to all!

12:29 Aug 5, 2017

Thank you to all who considered the links between whilom and whilesome, between late and erstwhile :-) Thank you to Charles for his usual precise and accurate references which made it possible to confirm that 'whilesome' means 'late'

Rachel Fell

United Kingdom

02:18 Aug 5, 2017

My dictionary explains "whilom" as originating from the dative plural of OE hwil, meaning "time"

katsy

ASKER

@Charles

13:48 Aug 4, 2017

Many thanks! Indeed it is Montaigne;and his original leaves no room for doubt. I have only been given isolated quotes, and in my eagerness to confirm "whilesome" was the original word, concentrated only on that.
I did not think I'd find the answer so quickly. Many thanks to all who've conttributed, too.

Tony M

France

13:14 Aug 4, 2017

In essence, it means 'at that time (but no longer)' — it's the adjective you get from the adverb 'while'; so 'erstwhile' is correct in certain contexts in modern EN, but as has been pointed out, would not really be so in this specific instance.

Yvonne Gallagher

Ireland

13:08 Aug 4, 2017

@ Charles great finds!

Charles Davis

Spain

(Continued)

13:06 Aug 4, 2017

ref. for the last quote:
http://essays.quotidiana.org/montaigne/one_defect_in_our_gov...

Just as a postscript, I've found one more example of "whilesome", in a footnote by George Castleden to his blank verse essay Conscience (1842), where he refers to "my whilesome lay":
https://books.google.es/books?id=wCqBlwuMHYgC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA...

Charles Davis

Spain

This is Montaigne, not Hartlib

13:03 Aug 4, 2017

It's from the Hartlib papers, but the text is Montaigne's essay I, XXXV, 'D'un defaut de nos policies' (numbered IV, XXIV in Hartlib's papers):

"L. Montagne's Essayes the fourth Book
the XXIV Chapter,
Of a Defect in our POLICIES.
MY whilesome Father who had no help but from experience and his own nature, yet of an unspotted judgement hath heretofore told me [...]"
https://www.hrionline.ac.uk/hartlib/view?docset=main&docname...

Florio's translation reads as follows:

"MY whilome father, a man who had no helpe but from experience and his owne nature, yet of an unspotted judgement, hath heretofore told me"
http://www.luminarium.org/renascence-editions/montaigne/1xxx...

So that confirms the whilesome/whilome connection.

And the meaning is indeed "late". Here's Montaigne's original (copied from my copy of the Pléiade ed., p. 220):

"Feu mon pere, homme, pour n'estre aydé que de l'experience et du natural, d'un jugement bien net, m'a dict autrefois [...])"

And another English translation:

"My late father, a man that had no other advantages than experience and his own natural parts, was nevertheless of a very clear judgment, formerly told me [...]"

Christopher Crockett

Amazingly, the OED

12:50 Aug 4, 2017

has no entry for WHILESOME.

Here's part of the entry for WHILOM:

http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/228350?redirectedFrom=whilome#...

Etymology: Old English hwílum , later -on , -an , = Old Saxon hwîlon at times (Middle Dutch, Middle Low German wîlen formerly, Dutch wijlen late = deceased)...

†1. At times.: = while adv. 1, whiles n., conj., and adv. 6b. Obs.

2. a. At some past time; some time before or ago; once upon a time.
2. b. as adj. That existed, or was such, at a former time; former; †of a person, ‘late’, deceased (obs.)

Seems to me that the "obsolete" sense (indicated by the dagger †) in 2.b fits your case best; a "former father" makes no sense, and your text is old enough to be obsolete.

Edith Kelly

Switzerland

Asker

12:08 Aug 4, 2017

may be I misunderstood your question. I thought you wanted to know what the words mean (erstwhile) and not an interpretation of the sentence. However, I do not know whether the words have the same meaning but pretty likely so.

philgoddard

United States

Wijlen

11:59 Aug 4, 2017

Means late/deceased in Dutch. I think from the context that this must be the meaning. It must be either a coinage or an obscure dialect word.

Yvonne Gallagher

Ireland

11:52 Aug 4, 2017

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/whilom

Yvonne Gallagher

Ireland

11:50 Aug 4, 2017

Edith
yep, indeed it is. I actually looked up whilom! so, don't know why I wrote it otherwise. Anyway, have edited now. So, what does it mean? I'm inclined to think "late" fits best...

Edith Kelly

Switzerland

Gallagy

11:44 Aug 4, 2017

it's whilom, not willom. I know the word, West Clare.

katsy

ASKER

@ Gallagy

11:39 Aug 4, 2017

Hi there! Thanks for those references. I had not thought to look up "whilom" anywhere else, and I had just noticed the "late" meaning when you re-posted. This sounds more logical/likely. I will see if I can establish anything about Hartlib's father's dates!!

Yvonne Gallagher

Ireland

11:30 Aug 4, 2017

Or it might mean: My late father (see "late" included here)... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whilom
though it (whilom" does seem to mean formerly/at a time in the past/erstwhile http://www.thefreedictionary.com/whilom

Yvonne Gallagher

Ireland

11:25 Aug 4, 2017

Can't say I ever saw either Whilesome or whilom before but if the latter perhaps it means "at times" as here?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whilom

Answers

28 mins confidence:

earstwhile

Explanation:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-whi1.htm

I know the word whilom, I think it has Irish roots.

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Note added at 30 mins (2017-08-04 11:42:28 GMT)
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should be spelled "e
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/whilom

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Note added at 31 mins (2017-08-04 11:43:34 GMT)
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sorry: erstwhile

If you look at the first ref and then at the second ref, it makes sense.

Edith Kelly
Switzerland
Local time: 07:19
Native speaker of:

German,

English

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thanks Edith. This certainly sounds likely. No dates for his father, but H always refers to him in terms like "my father was....". I'd like to be more sure that whilom and whilesome are synonyms.

45 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +3

late

Yvonne Gallagher
Ireland
Local time: 06:19
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 44

Grading comment

Thank you Gallagy!

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thanks Gallagy. Very likely I think. Like you no finds for "whilesome" - unless straight back to the Hartlib papers! (not so sure about pb with "erstwhile" though I do see your and Phil's point).

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