Disagreement about noun adjunct and modifier positions in FR, ES, PT, ID, IT, JA, ZH-CN
Thread poster: webtailken
webtailken
webtailken
Sweden
Mar 11, 2021

"American bra sizes" -- The main noun is "sizes" not "bra". This part seem to confuse some translators and I am getting different translations.

I am end-customer (I buy translation services, I don't offer them) so please excuse me for my lack of knowledge. =)

I have tried to dig into grammar and from what I understand the phrase is a "noun phrase" with the following parts:

American [adjectival modifier]
bra [noun adjunct]
sizes [noun]

... See more
"American bra sizes" -- The main noun is "sizes" not "bra". This part seem to confuse some translators and I am getting different translations.

I am end-customer (I buy translation services, I don't offer them) so please excuse me for my lack of knowledge. =)

I have tried to dig into grammar and from what I understand the phrase is a "noun phrase" with the following parts:

American [adjectival modifier]
bra [noun adjunct]
sizes [noun]

I want:
"American bra sizes" that mean "[American sizes] of bras", where "American sizes" refer to "American size convention".

I do not want:
"American bra sizes" that means "sizes of [American bras]", where "American bras" refer to "American made bras".

Translators so far (4 attempts for all languages) seem to disagree. And I am stuck. I have no way of verifying translations.

I don't know what to do. How can I explain this better?

For germanic languages, this is not a problem, For example German: "Amerikanische BH-Größen". The structure is familiar to me (Swedish) so I know it's right.


*****
If you are interested, these are the translations I am unsure about. These are just example of the translations I have gotten.

Original:
"American bra sizes" as in "[American sizes] of bras".
"American bra sizes" as in "sizes of [American bras]".

French:
« Tailles américaines de soutien-gorge » comme dans « [Tailles américaines] de soutiens-gorge ».
« Tailles de soutien-gorge américaines » comme « tailles de [soutiens-gorge américains] ».

Spanish (Spain):
"Tallas de sujetadores estadounidenses" como en "[tallas estadounidenses] de sujetadores".
"Tallas de sujetadores estadounidenses" como en "tallas de [sujetadores estadounidenses]".

Portugese (Portugal):
"Tamanhos de sutiã norte-americanos" como em "[tamanhos norte-americanos] de sutiã".
"Tamanhos de sutiã norte-americanos" como em "tamanhos de [sutiã norte-americanos]".

Indonesian:
"Bra ukuran Amerika" seperti pada "bra [berukuran orang Amerika]".
"Ukuran bra Amerika" seperti pada "ukuran dari [bra Amerika]".

Italian:
"Taglie di reggiseno americane" come per "[taglie americane] di reggiseni".
"Taglie di reggiseno americane" come in "taglie di [reggiseni americani]".

Japanese, I can't evaluate this at all but include anyway:
"ブラジャーの[アメリカのサイズ]という所の"アメリカのブラジャーのサイズ "です。
"[アメリカのブラジャー]のサイズ "という所の"アメリカのブラジャーのサイズ "です。

Chinese (ch-zn), I can't evaluate at all but include anyway:
“美国胸罩尺寸”可以指“[美国尺寸]的胸罩”。
“美国胸罩尺寸”可以指“[美国胸罩]的尺寸”。
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neilmac
neilmac
Spain
Local time: 16:34
Spanish to English
+ ...
ES-EN translator here Mar 11, 2021

As a Spanish to English translator, the Spanish looks okay to me. I can't comment on the rest.

 
Victoria Britten
Victoria Britten  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:34
French to English
+ ...
French good too Mar 11, 2021

The second one is potentially more ambivalent, but the first is not and is the translation you're looking for.

Daryo
 
Veronica Montserrat
Veronica Montserrat
France
Local time: 16:34
Member (2020)
English to French
+ ...
I can speak for French only Mar 11, 2021

there is an error in your example:

« Tailles américaines de soutien-gorge » comme dans « [Tailles américaines] de soutiens-gorge ».
« Tailles de soutien-gorge américaines » comme « tailles de [soutiens-gorge américains] ».

The second one should read:

« Tailles de soutiens-gorges américains » comme « tailles de [soutiens-gorges américains] ».

"Taille" is feminine while "soutien-gorge" is masculine.
"Soutien-gorge" s
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there is an error in your example:

« Tailles américaines de soutien-gorge » comme dans « [Tailles américaines] de soutiens-gorge ».
« Tailles de soutien-gorge américaines » comme « tailles de [soutiens-gorge américains] ».

The second one should read:

« Tailles de soutiens-gorges américains » comme « tailles de [soutiens-gorges américains] ».

"Taille" is feminine while "soutien-gorge" is masculine.
"Soutien-gorge" should be singular in the first sentence, but plural in the second one.

that would correspond to the original "American bra sizes" as in "sizes of [American bras]".

The one that matches the original "American bra sizes" as in "[American sizes] of bras" is the first one, but the second one would work as well as we understand that "américaines" refers to "tailles".

Personnally, I would have understood it as American sizes of bras, as it doesn't make much sense to look for sizes of American bras.

The only way for you to explain what you are looking for is to give the translator as much context as possible. I do not know if that helps.


[Edited at 2021-03-11 10:56 GMT]

[Edited at 2021-03-11 11:02 GMT]

[Edited at 2021-03-11 11:14 GMT]
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Sara Massons
 
expressisverbis
expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 15:34
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
European Portuguese: Mar 11, 2021

Both translations are right. Portuguese adjectives are usually variable in their position.
An adjective is a word whose main role is to modify a noun or pronoun, giving more information about the noun (or pronoun's) definition.
So, if you really want to be more precise according to the definition above, I would go for:
'tamanhos norte-americanos de sutiã'.
However, as I said before, both versions are correct.


Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:34
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Italian Mar 11, 2021

they are both correct.

 
Korana Lasić
Korana Lasić  Identity Verified
Member
Serbian to English
+ ...
About the original Mar 11, 2021

"American bra sizes" as in "[American sizes] of bras". Is correct.

"American bra sizes" as in "sizes of [American bras]". This one should be:

"American bras sizes"

Your example could also be correct if you happen to speak about the American bra or brand mentioned before, but this would only be understood from a certain narrow context and as a stand-alone and to avoid ambiguity, the phrase is better written as I indicated


 
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 16:34
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
+ ...
In Spanish Mar 11, 2021

webtailken wrote:
"American bra sizes" that mean "[American sizes] of bras", where "American sizes" refer to "American size convention".


The translation you are looking for is "tallas estadounidenses de sujetadores"

The other option "tallas de sujetadores estadounidenses" is ambiguous, and will most probably be read as "sizes of [American bras]", where "American bras" refer to "American made bras".

But for a really correct translation we would use the singular "sujetador". It sounds much more natural in Spanish. In this case the order is irrelevant, as both "tallas de sujetador estadounidenses" and "tallas estadounidenses de sujetador" mean exactly "[American sizes] of bras".

[Edited at 2021-03-12 01:05 GMT]


 
Arianne Farah
Arianne Farah  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 11:34
Member (2008)
English to French
Smart example choice ;-) Mar 12, 2021

Usually other translators here will bite the head off of an end client trying to get some free advice, but it seems everyone likes to talk about bras!

Both your examples in French have the same meaning as the feminising of 'américaines' means it refers to 'tailles' no matter where it's put in the sentence fragment. Nonetheless "Tailles de soutien-gorge américaines" reads better.

The 'American' in the source is the weird part though - I'd except to see 'US bra sizes' i
... See more
Usually other translators here will bite the head off of an end client trying to get some free advice, but it seems everyone likes to talk about bras!

Both your examples in French have the same meaning as the feminising of 'américaines' means it refers to 'tailles' no matter where it's put in the sentence fragment. Nonetheless "Tailles de soutien-gorge américaines" reads better.

The 'American' in the source is the weird part though - I'd except to see 'US bra sizes' instead.
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Sara Massons
 


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Disagreement about noun adjunct and modifier positions in FR, ES, PT, ID, IT, JA, ZH-CN







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