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Removal of Negative Feedback Entry on BB due to Ambiguity of TimeFrame regarding Complaints
Thread poster: Yasutomo Kanazawa
Yasutomo Kanazawa
Yasutomo Kanazawa  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 21:14
Member (2005)
English to Japanese
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TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Jenny, Maija and Mirko Sep 25, 2017

for you advice.

I just submitted a support ticket regarding this issue.

Let's see what happens and how Proz will take action.

I will keep everybody posted.


 
Thayenga
Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:14
Member (2009)
English to German
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A good alternative Sep 25, 2017

Maija Cirule wrote:

I would visit the URL http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm and submit a detailed description of your experience with the scammer and its protector, or http://www.paymentpractices.net/Register.aspx.


Thank you Maija.

Many translators obtain their information about outsourcers from these two sources. Additionally, you are allowed, even required to state their names - which you cannot do here.

@Yasutomo

Good luck with your support request.


 
Inga Petkelyte
Inga Petkelyte  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:14
Lithuanian to Portuguese
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O-oh! Sep 25, 2017

Maija Cirule wrote:

I would visit the URL http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm and submit a detailed description of your experience with the scammer and its protector, or http://www.paymentpractices.net/Register.aspx.


Maija, can someone be reported as a non-payer if that happened several years ago?


 
Maija Cirule
Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 14:14
German to English
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And additional sources are LinkedIn groups Sep 25, 2017

Thayenga wrote:

Maija Cirule wrote:

I would visit the URL http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm and submit a detailed description of your experience with the scammer and its protector, or http://www.paymentpractices.net/Register.aspx.


Thank you Maija.

Many translators obtain their information about outsourcers from these two sources. Additionally, you are allowed, even required to state their names - which you cannot do here.

@Yasutomo

Good luck with your support request.


https://www.linkedin.com/groups/3415770 and https://www.linkedin.com/groups/4747821. I wonder how come that LinkedIn allows to name the agencies and even their CEOs and has not been either sued or penalized.

[Edited at 2017-09-25 16:56 GMT]


 
Maija Cirule
Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 14:14
German to English
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Hi Inga, Sep 25, 2017

Inga Petkelyte wrote:

Maija Cirule wrote:

I would visit the URL http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm and submit a detailed description of your experience with the scammer and its protector, or http://www.paymentpractices.net/Register.aspx.


Maija, can someone be reported as a non-payer if that happened several years ago?


I don't know but you can contact some staff member. I think that it should be possible but I am not sure about it.


 
Yolanda Broad
Yolanda Broad  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:14
Member (2000)
French to English
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MODERATOR
There is no time limit on when a Blue Board entry can be made Sep 25, 2017

Inga Petkelyte wrote:

Maija Cirule wrote:

I would visit the URL http://www.translator-scammers.com/translator-scammers-directory.htm and submit a detailed description of your experience with the scammer and its protector, or http://www.paymentpractices.net/Register.aspx.


Maija, can someone be reported as a non-payer if that happened several years ago?


Please see https://www.proz.com/siterules/blue_board_bb_blueboard/2#2 It explain what limitations are placed on entering an LWA (Likelihood to Work Again) in a Blue Board record. The "time limitation" mentioned involves timely delivery of a job and timely notification by the outsourcer of any complaints relating to quality of the work submitted.


 
Yasutomo Kanazawa
Yasutomo Kanazawa  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 21:14
Member (2005)
English to Japanese
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TOPIC STARTER
@Thayenga Sep 26, 2017

[quote]Thayenga wrote:



@Yasutomo

Good luck with your support request.


Thank you Thayenga. The the support staff is now collecting information (correspondence) from the outsourcer in question.


 
Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:14
Member (2003)
French to Italian
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sure but they remove... Sep 26, 2017

Thayenga wrote:

30 days after delivery is definitely not "shortly". In fact, even 14 days after delivery is in a gray zone. A week is more realistic.

It is hard to believe that any complaints about the quality of your translation only arise when it's time for the agency to fulfill its part of the contract, that is, when payment is due. Not knowing the agency in question, such behavior does raise a red flag.


I agree, but they remove... it has happened to me.. I am now very disheartened by the way in which BB are managed, sure I have a lot of good clients and well ok... but BB are now almost useless, because of the excuse in bad faith for not paying and removal..

Long time ago BB were well managed and you could also be helped regarding the payment, not now... now they remove even if the complain is made after 2 months,


 
Thayenga
Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:14
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
ProZ = Professionals, no? Sep 26, 2017

Angie Garbarino wrote:

I agree, but they remove... it has happened to me.. I am now very disheartened by the way in which BB are managed, sure I have a lot of good clients and well ok... but BB are now almost useless, because of the excuse in bad faith for not paying and removal..

Long time ago BB were well managed and you could also be helped regarding the payment, not now... now they remove even if the complain is made after 2 months,



Yes, I know they do. What I'm wondering is why negative entries aren't allowed on the BB anymore. I had to make negative entries on 2 occasions, and to my knowledge, they're still there. They serve to protect our colleagues from unnecessary problems, especially with non-payers..

The purpose of the BB is (I believe) to provide honest, professional information for professional translators/interpreters who are checking the professional conduct of a (potential) customer based on the experience made by our colleagues who have worked with them. Aside from good experiences, this must also include any negative issues (of course not "I didn't like the customer's face type) an LSP has encountered, especially when it comes to non-payers.

If a colleague makes a negative comment after having tried every possible means to solve any problems with an outsourcer - to no avail, and these comments are removed (for whatever reason), then this "action" is not very professional and, in fact, might even be disguising the business conduct of a customer, thus possibly resulting in a "trap" the LSP might get caught in.

These are my 2 cents.


 
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Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:14
Danish to English
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What the Blue Board rules say Sep 27, 2017

Perhaps the problem is that translators tend to believe the Blue Board rules say something else than what they actually say:

"there have not been complaints related to quality shortly after delivery"
https://www.proz.com/siterules/blue_board_bb_blueboard/2#2

What it does NOT say is:
"there have not been JUSTIFIED complaints related to qualit
... See more
Perhaps the problem is that translators tend to believe the Blue Board rules say something else than what they actually say:

"there have not been complaints related to quality shortly after delivery"
https://www.proz.com/siterules/blue_board_bb_blueboard/2#2

What it does NOT say is:
"there have not been JUSTIFIED complaints related to quality shortly after delivery"

Proz has confirmed that the absence of the word "justified" is not a mistake. They don't want to judge who is right and wrong, so this is clearly a gaping hole in the rules that allows unscrupulous outsourcers to prevent bad feedback simply by making a complaint, even if there is nothing to complain about. Translation is not an exact science, and you can always make up something to complain about if you want. I'm not referring to the concrete case discussed; only talking in general terms.

To avoid falling in this trap, the translator can wait until the period "shortly after delivery" has expired. It would obviously be helpful if Proz would indicate what exactly this means, but to be safe, based on what has been discussed, it would probably be wise to wait 2-3 months after an incident before posting feedback.

It is a shame nothing is done to warn the translator about this trap when submitting a BB entry. The result seems to be that many warnings about bad payers disappear, making the BB biased towards positive feedback and thus a less helpful creditworthiness evaluation tool than what it could be if translators were simply aware of this way to prevent feedback deletion.

Obviously bad work should not be defended, but by waiting 2-3 months after an incident before posting feedback, the outsourcer is given sufficient time to complain and thereby prevent unjustified negative feedback.
Collapse


 
Michael Newton
Michael Newton  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:14
Japanese to English
+ ...
Blue Board rules Sep 27, 2017

We are seeing a sea change in the way translator feedback is processed by proz.com. Historically there have been many frank, blunt and direct criticisms of an agency's behavior. Now, however, saying that an agency is a "non-payer" or that "accounting department is not cooperating" is considered "abusive" and the comment is removed. The "rules" are taking us into a murky Orwellian world where up is down and down is up. The capriciousness and censoriousness of the powers that be at proz.com show t... See more
We are seeing a sea change in the way translator feedback is processed by proz.com. Historically there have been many frank, blunt and direct criticisms of an agency's behavior. Now, however, saying that an agency is a "non-payer" or that "accounting department is not cooperating" is considered "abusive" and the comment is removed. The "rules" are taking us into a murky Orwellian world where up is down and down is up. The capriciousness and censoriousness of the powers that be at proz.com show that they do not have the translators' back. Besides, they need the revenue from all those agencies. If I had a major beef with an agency, e.g., a huge amount of money owed, I would go onto the Internet and place a dedicated complaint about the agency. I think they would react quickly. I too am thinking seriously about not renewing my membership.Collapse


 
Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:14
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
Where? Sep 27, 2017

Michael Newton wrote:

If I had a major beef with an agency, e.g., a huge amount of money owed, I would go onto the Internet and place a dedicated complaint about the agency. I think they would react quickly. I too am thinking seriously about not renewing my membership.


Where in the Internet? Because a colleague from the USA owes me 1650 dollars and disappeared, so I am interested in knowing where I can post a feedback.

Many thanks

[Edited at 2017-09-27 15:13 GMT]


 
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Removal of Negative Feedback Entry on BB due to Ambiguity of TimeFrame regarding Complaints







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